Brand-spanking new player to Pathfinder, with only three sessions under my belt. I've played two sessions as a Magus and one as a Wizard, a couple of my favorite type of classes. Now in this next module my DM is designing, I wanted to make a fresh character far away from magic dependent classes, a Dex-based TWF Unchained Rogue.
I wanted him to be very acrobatic, able to debuff enemies in the same round as he attacks, and switch from melee to ranged as the situation demands, while maintaining his usefulness outside of combat, which is what a Rogue's place should be!
More than likely this will be accomplished with daggers, but after looking over the Knife Master archetype, I'm not sure I want to give up my trap sense and ability to use my SA with other weapons. Even though the upgrade to d8 for daggers and other similar light weapons is pretty sweet, I don't know if it's worth giving up a couple core skill of my class.
This is my build so far:
Human- Unchained Rogue: Level 1
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Str: 11
Int: 13
Dex: 17+2(19)
Wis: 17
Con: 14
Cha: 16
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HP: 10
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10 Skill Points total at start.
Skills invested in are:
Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (Local)
Perception
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
My favored class bonus has gone to the 1/6 towards a new Rogue talent.
Traits: Reactionary, Opportunistic (To be synergized with Combat Reflexes), (Human) Skilled
Feats: (Class bonus feat) Weapon Finesse, TWF, and Weapon Focus: Dagger [Human Bonus- (URT)Weapon Training]
I was thinking of going into the TW Improved Feint Line, so I can debuff my enemies in the same round as I attack, but I don't quite get it as I've yet to play any kind of stealth character in PF. What other feats should be taken to compliment this play style? Am I trying to do too much at once?
Help would be greatly appreciated! As this is my first time posting here, any constructive criticism is also welcome if I'm lacking in my description of how I want to run this character!
There is 9,000 posts/threads on Rogue builds.
Practice your Web-fu.
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A few of us were just working through a similar build (Crit-fishing TWF) on another thread.
Since UCR gets debilitating strike at 4th level (when dealing SA damage) my recommendation is getting Improved Feint by then which allows you to make a bluff-check as a move action to make the enemy flat-footed, and then use your standard action to make a SA strike vs their FF AC. Nice at 3rd level to add that 2d6 SA damage, but -really- nice at 4th level when you can make them bewildered or disoriented and basically reduce their to-hit or AC by 2 vs ally and 4 vs you for the next round. If you have flanking then you're just doubling the chance you hit for SA damage that round, and increase your odds of the debuff. But the Improved Feint ensures you can try to get them FF and do SA even w/o a flanking buddy. Of course you'll want to keep Bluff maxed every level
But you need Combat Expertise. so the Feats may work out:
(H): TWF
1st: CExpertise
2dRT:Weapon Training: Dagger
3rd:Improved Feint (Plus dex to damage with 1 finesse wpn)
4thRT:Lasting Poison (possible debuff options)
The knife-master is an option, and with the skill ranks you can still keep perception and disable device maxed so losing trap sense won't make you useless in that regard.
My Web-fu is weak on the pitiful smart phone, sensei. Haha But thanks for the reply, I'll keep on looking!
So the Knifemaster would still be viable then? That's great bc I really liked the flavor as it fits the concept I have for the character.
Couldn't I use Combat Trick at first level to pick up TW Feint and bypass the Combat Expertise prereq or do I have to fulfill them?
Do you have a link to the thread you were discussing the build on? I don't want to ask dozens of questions when I could practice my "Web-fu"!
Thank you for taking the time to reply, now I have the proper name to narrow down the search for build guides. ^_^
MajorMishap wrote: So the Knifemaster would still be viable then? That's great bc I really liked the flavor as it fits the concept I have for the character.
Couldn't I use Combat Trick at first level to pick up TW Feint and bypass the Combat Expertise prereq or do I have to fulfill them?
Do you have a link to the thread you were discussing the build on? I don't want to ask dozens of questions when I could practice my "Web-fu"!
Thank you for taking the time to reply, now I have the proper name to narrow down the search for build guides. ^_^
Two Weapon Crit build thread
Although it wasn't rogue only, as ranger got some play in the possible design options as well.
Just looked over knife master. if your goal is just going daggers as the "norm", then the d8 SA dice is a nice addition. You can still do SA with other weapons, but its at d4.
Trapsense was replaced with Danger sense for UC, but knifemaster gets blade sense as a swap. You receive a +1 dodge bonus vs light blades (compared to getting a reflex bonus and AC bonus vs traps, and surprise).
UCR gets a feat every odd level (like all classes); and a Rogues Talent every even level. Human would give you that extra feat at 1st level, but you don't really become solid on debuffing until that debilitating strike kicks in at 4th level. There is a debuff RT called Slow Reactions which removes their attack of opportunity ability for 1 round, but not that great IMO unless its a foe that really benefits from AoO's.
MajorMishap wrote:
This is my build so far:
Human- Unchained Rogue: Level 1
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Str: 11
Int: 13
Dex: 17+2(19)
Wis: 17
Con: 14
Cha: 16
Did you roll for stats or use a point buy. Can you move your ability scores around? As that will make the biggest difference in your character.
Starting Feet's I recommend: Faster Learner, and Two Weapon Fighting.
As a human with Int 13 Fast Learner is a strong feet choice. Fast Learner gets you both the +1 skill point, and +1 HP from your favored class every level.
For switch hitting you will need quick draw. I recommend picking it up at level 3. I don't recommend trying to go this route with a rogue however. The lack of extra feet's and BAB makes it very hard to pull off. Even harder as you lose your main damage bonus when you use most range attacks.
I never recommend giving up trap sense. As every one at the table will expect you to handle the traps. Unless you work with the other players to make sure some one can.
How did you get those stats? It's a 45 point-buy.
calagnar wrote:
I never recommend giving up trap sense. As every one at the table will expect you to handle the traps. Unless you work with the other players to make sure some one can.
I don't know. Trapfinding is nice, but you can always spot magical traps with Detect Magic, or just a Perception check.
Yeah, bonuses are nice, but I don't think it's essential to have. You just love the ability to unlock Magical Traps, you can always avoid them though.
calagnar wrote: MajorMishap wrote:
This is my build so far:
Human- Unchained Rogue: Level 1
----------------
Str: 11
Int: 13
Dex: 17+2(19)
Wis: 17
Con: 14
Cha: 16
Did you roll for stats or use a point buy. Can you move your ability scores around? As that will make the biggest difference in your character.
Starting Feet's I recommend: Faster Learner, and Two Weapon Fighting.
As a human with Int 13 Fast Learner is a strong feet choice. Fast Learner gets you both the +1 skill point, and +1 HP from your favored class every level.
For switch hitting you will need quick draw. I recommend picking it up at level 3. I don't recommend trying to go this route with a rogue however. The lack of extra feet's and BAB makes it very hard to pull off. Even harder as you lose your main damage bonus when you use most range attacks.
I never recommend giving up trap sense. As every one at the table will expect you to handle the traps. Unless you work with the other players to make sure some one can. I assumed it was a good set of rolls on 4d6 x 7.
Switch hitting is rough as you point out with daggers. Although, even w/o quick draw, after 1st level he could throw 2 as a full attack, and next round draw 2 new daggers as a part of a move (with the TWF Feat), so that would help ensure he's not w/o weapons, he just wouldn't be able to throw 2 per round after that first barrage, but its nice to be able to do that if you want to apply SA damage during surprise round or before the foe as acted.
While you can get SA out to 30' its very difficult to do after surprise round, since rare circumstances that make them flatfooted to your attacks. Really to your point, and especially as a Knife Master with 1d8 SA - you want to attack with SA as often as possible, and counting on ranged attacks is going to limit SA opportunity.
When I was reading the Knife Master, I didn't think they gave up the ability to find/disarm traps, just the special ability Trap Sense (replaced by Danger Sense in Unchained). That ability is to avoid a triggered traps damage by reflex save/AC bonus of +1 per 3 levels, and to avoid surprise. I don't believe it gives any bonus to perception to find, or disable device to disarm traps themselves, so he could still be the trapfinder/disarming guy.
Fast Learner might not be best use of a feat for a rogue though if he's trying to get to debuffing as quick as possible. As a human rogue 13Int, he'll already get 10ranks per level (8+int+human), so could just put his FCB into HP. Although, IMO its almost always best to just take the skill point either linguistics or max another knowledge - better out of combat utility than another HP.
My mistake I quoted the wrong ability. The result is the same Knife Master can't disable magic traps. Yes you can find them. Not all the time can you get around them.
Knife Master
Replaces: Trapfinding; Trap Sense
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Hidden Blade: A knife master adds 1/2 her level on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a light blade. This ability replaces trapfinding.
calagnar wrote: My mistake I quoted the wrong ability. The result is the same Knife Master can't disable magic traps. Yes you can find them. Not all the time can you get around them.
Knife Master
Replaces: Trapfinding; Trap Sense
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Hidden Blade: A knife master adds 1/2 her level on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a light blade. This ability replaces trapfinding.
both missed a little tidbit. I didn't fully read the hidden blade line so missed the "replaces trap finding", or I would have put 2 and 2 together on what you meant.
Maybe worth asking "are magic traps really going to be an issue?". he may not tip that hand, but may at least indicate if its going to be prolific enough that you should not go with the archtype vs straight UCR.
All said and done, I don't think being a "dagger based" for that 1d8 SA is a bad thing. 19-20 crit range, P or S options to help with some DRs, get them cold-iron with some silver-sheen flasks and you're a long way towards fully hitting most things except skeletons. The slick thing about 1 wpn is those wpn focus, dex to damage, etc all applies to both hands, and you can throw them. Very nice synergy and a simple packing list.
Yes, it was rolled with 4d6's, dropping the lowest one. It must be beginner's luck, but I can't seem to get bad rolls. At all. My friend that invited me into his group said that the DM might possibly switch over to the point buy system because of these ridiculous rolls.
Alright, I moved some things around and I've got a
Human
Unchained Knifemaster - 1
Str: 11
Int: 14
Dex: 19
Wis: 13
Con: 17
Cha: 16
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HP: 11
(Leaving out my AC as I haven't decided on gear)
Fort: 3
Reflex: 7
Will: 1
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Initiative: +6
CMD: 14
CMB: 0
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With my ten skill points I've invested in
Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Initmidate
Knowledge(Dungeon.)
Perception
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
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Feats and Traits
Level 1: Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Fighting, (class bonus) Weapon Finesse
Reactionary, River Rat (and if allowed, the Paranoid drawback, picking up the Hidden Hand Trait)
Level 2: Weapon Focus: Dagger
Level 3: Deific Obedience (Pharasma)
Level 4: (Combat Trick) Quick Draw
Level 5: Two Weapon Feint
Level 6: Underhanded, Extra Talent (?) suggestions on this one?
Level 7: (Unsure again what would be best for this level since I've only played up to level 2)
Level 8: Rogue Talent, since allowed by RAW, can take Ninja Trick, to then take Combat Trick, since initial Talent taken does not share a name. This seems like pretty wishy-washy logic, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed haha Which then I'll use it to get Improved TWF. If not, I'll want to take Quick Draw at Level 3 with my new feat)
Level 9: Improved, Two Weapon Feint
And that's all I got. I have no knowledge of useful items, gear or utility respectively so all I've got is a general idea of what I want to do, but not sure how to use the system to get the results.
How's it looking so far?
I'll definitely have to ask what skills might be needed for this module my DM is designing and what kind of roles are covered by the others. I am pretty sure one will be a Tiefling Sorcerer hell bent on becoming an elemental punching machine of some kind. I'm still fuzzy on what he's attempting haha
You might consider eventually dipping 1-3 levels into Snakebite Striker, the 3rd level is pretty sweet if you're using a Feint build.
Also of note - the Knife Master's d8 SA applies to the Snakebite Striker's SA dice.
Is that another Rogue Archetype or another class's archetype?
"At 1st level, her sneak attack damage is +1d6. This increases by 1d6 at 6th, 10th, 12th, and 20th levels. If she gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack."
So that means by sixth level or so 3 or 4d8 with the KnifeMaster SA and then I'd add the the amount of 1d6's from Snakebite Striker? And a feint can be combined with a move action? That sounds pretty damn good, especially with that action economy of feinting during a move action.
Snakebite Striker is a Brawler archetype.
MajorMishap wrote: Is that another Rogue Archetype or another class's archetype?
"At 1st level, her sneak attack damage is +1d6. This increases by 1d6 at 6th, 10th, 12th, and 20th levels. If she gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack."
So that means by sixth level or so 3 or 4d8 with the KnifeMaster SA and then I'd add the the amount of 1d6's from Snakebite Striker? And a feint can be combined with a move action? That sounds pretty damn good, especially with that action economy of feinting during a move action.
It's a Brawler archetype - nor a Rogue one - so your SA is off. It's an entirely different class which gets SA at a slower rate than Rogues. It has all sorts of goodies over the first few levels which mesh well with rogues though.
Check the Knifemaster wording though - it changes ALL SA to d8 with a dagger - not just any rogue SA - do the Snakebite Striker SA is also d8.
With this little tip, you just blew my mind. The wording on all of these class abilities is crazy. I guess I'm just not used to such a complicated system yet... but I WILL BE.
So you're saying, for the sake of BAB and a rather good ability at level three, that three levels of SS Brawler and then multiclassing Rogue is a better alternative?
That being said, I did read over a few of the other threads as I've pondered my character. You mentioned that later in game, the advantages are less obvious, while in the early levels they really help damage output and therefore help in surviving. Which is really important because in the last session two characters were killed and ressed as some kind of undead thrall (exact type of magic used is still a mystery).
My Paladin and I lived only because of a nat 20 Flare on a Kobold.
A freaking Flare man!
Our DM is downright evil git that makes everything so damn suspenseful that you can't help but love it.
MajorMishap wrote: With this little tip, you just blew my mind. The wording on all of these class abilities is crazy. I guess I'm just not used to such a complicated system yet... but I WILL BE.
So you're saying, for the sake of BAB and a rather good ability at level three, that three levels of SS Brawler and then multiclassing Rogue is a better alternative?
The multiclassing isn't BETTER - just a valid option. Though your first 3-4 levels should definitely be Urogue so that you grab Dex-to-Damage. After that though - 1-3 levels of Snakebite Striker is a valid option. Or just continue with levels of Urogue.
In Pathfinder there is rarely one BEST build - but I figured that I'd give you another valid option for you to choose from.
I'm finding that out more and more as I delve into these character builds on the Advice board. haha
I was thinking of just continuing with the URogue with the Knife Master archetype, if only to see how it plays out. If I'm terribly disappointed, I'll probably be moving along to a Ranger switch-hitter build, or possibly a Wild Shape Druid.
I just really enjoy a character that takes a bit of inspired abstract thinking with skills to back up an out of the box solution to any problems that present themselves to my character and the party. And it seems that the SA based classes are all about positioning and choosing which tactics are best for the situation.
That being said, I love the idea of feinting with one weapon, attacking with the other, and in the later levels, getting to make all of make following attacks on a FF enemy for much more likely to hit chance, while retaining a bit of the Skill Monkey role that the Rogue fills.
Multiclassing just enough to pick up a powerful combat boost can be very useful on a Rogue, since it can make a major difference to combat stats. Two simple examples:
1)take one level of Urban Barbarian to gain the Controlled Rage ability, which grants +4DEX and the ability to use a Furious weapon (better weapon enhancement while using Rage), and doesn't lower AC or prevent skills. The only real drawback is that the Extra Rage feat is needed to gain more rounds of Rage per day, but it's fairly generous.
2)take three levels of Weapon Master Fighter to gain the Weapon Training feature (+1 to attack and damage), and then pick up Gloves of Dueling when possible (+2 more attack and damage from Weapon Training). As a side-bonus, you get two bonus feats.
Either one of these options adds a major upgrade to basic combat ability. There's a also feat that adds back Sneak Attack if you multiclass several levels.
Multiclassing is definitely not necessary, but you can add a lot to a Rogue with it.
BadBird wrote: Multiclassing just enough to pick up a powerful combat boost can be very useful on a Rogue, since it can make a major difference to combat stats. Two simple examples:
1)take one level of Urban Barbarian to gain the Controlled Rage ability, which grants +4DEX and the ability to use a Furious weapon (better weapon enhancement while using Rage), and doesn't lower AC or prevent skills. The only real drawback is that the Extra Rage feat is needed to gain more rounds of Rage per day, but it's fairly generous.
2)take three levels of Weapon Master Fighter to gain the Weapon Training feature (+1 to attack and damage), and then pick up Gloves of Dueling when possible (+2 more attack and damage from Weapon Training). As a side-bonus, you get two bonus feats.
Either one of these options adds a major upgrade to basic combat ability. There's a also feat that adds back Sneak Attack if you multiclass several levels.
Multiclassing is definitely not necessary, but you can add a lot to a Rogue with it.
I think I'll take that three levels of Weapon Master, more for the flavor of mastering daggers and other similar small blades. That flavor of mastery makes good rolellaying synergy with the knifemaster archetype of the Urogue. That's what I'll want to level until I feel that my character becpmes the rogue I've always wanted to play. For his style I'll be going down the TWF and TW Feint line of feats which I hear are both very heavy in prerequisites.
As I have my stats right now, I'm not sure I want such a low Str score if I start as a fighter. I've been planning on going full unchained Rogue and haven't gone this avenue at all before the benefits and brainstorming about a rich character.
The second arranging of stats are what's on my sheet for this campaign in the works that he guarantees will bring us to level 6. So what stats would I need? Rn I'm obviously gunning for a two weapon fighting rogue that can hack and stab from the shadows and maybe conjure up a bit of shadow with the talents to supplement the sneak attack. I'm going to ask that I can substitute uncanny dodge for the Scout's first class ability. Is that asking too kuch?
calagnar wrote: As a human with Int 13 Fast Learner is a strong feet choice. Fast Learner gets you both the +1 skill point, and +1 HP from your favored class every level. How is getting a tenth or eleventh skill point per level a "strong feet[sic] choice"? Rogue already has more skills than necessary yet not enough feats. The whole class problem (well, apart from the whole "the mechanics does the exact opposite of the flavor" thing) is that rogues are only good at skills, which are nearly always vastly overshadowed by spells or other magical abilities, and not much else - including combat.
calagnar wrote: I never recommend giving up trap sense. As every one at the table will expect you to handle the traps. Why would "every one at the table" expect a rogue to handle traps?
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MajorMishap wrote: As I have my stats right now, I'm not sure I want such a low Str score if I start as a fighter. I've been planning on going full unchained Rogue and haven't gone this avenue at all before the benefits and brainstorming about a rich character. For an Unchained Rogue multiclass, you'd typically want to go at least 3 URogue first anyhow - branch-out into Weapon Master after the basic build has come together, so that things like Finesse Training and Sneak Attack and skills are at a reasonable place.
Derklord wrote: calagnar wrote: As a human with Int 13 Fast Learner is a strong feet choice. Fast Learner gets you both the +1 skill point, and +1 HP from your favored class every level. How is getting a tenth or eleventh skill point per level a "strong feet[sic] choice"? Rogue already has more skills than necessary yet not enough feats. The whole class problem (well, apart from the whole "the mechanics does the exact opposite of the flavor" thing) is that rogues are only good at skills, which are nearly always vastly overshadowed by spells or other magical abilities, and not much else - including combat. Rogues aren't actually that *good* at skills, they just have more skills that they're mediocre to decent at. By about 6th level, the Bard will be better than the Rogue at several Charisma-based skills, as good as or better at knowledges than the Rogue, and just as good as the Rogue in several other skills. The Bard gets several extra pseudo-skill points every few levels that get keyed off of their spellcasting stat, while Rogues are stuck with the skills they started with. So at really high levels, a Rogue will end up with fewer skill points than the Bard or the Wizard, and be worse at most of those skills except Acrobatics and Disable Device... Until the Bard or Wizard sidesteps the problem with a spell.
Derklord wrote: calagnar wrote: I never recommend giving up trap sense. As every one at the table will expect you to handle the traps. Why would "every one at the table" expect a rogue to handle traps? Genre convention. Oh, and stock Rogues aren't *that* bad at finding traps, especially if they build for it. It saves the Cleric the pain of having to cast Find Traps every time you go dungeon diving.
So I've been perusing the many guides and stumbled across this one, The Twirler.
This seems to be exactly what I was looking for in terms of style of fighting. My question is the feat line provided. Can I take the URogue instead of the regular core if I use two Archetypes? This is mostly to cut down on feat costs with Weapon Finesse with URogue's bonus feat.
I'm not too worried about later levels right now, as the campaign should get us to level 6 at most. Is this too low a level a campaig for a build such as this to come online?
My second option is an Archer, but that too is feat intensive and involves the same concerns I have for this build.
My Self wrote:
Genre convention. Oh, and stock Rogues aren't *that* bad at finding traps, especially if they build for it. It saves the Cleric the pain of having to cast Find Traps every time you go dungeon diving.
Ok, I don't get this. Any decent cleric with 16 WIS is going to have a trait to get Perception as class skill.
Until level 6 the Cleric will be actually better at finding trap, assuming Rogue has 10 WIS, not considering WIS enhancements, since every +2 WIS, will take 2 levels for the Rogue to catch up.
Why would the Cleric take Religion? Wizard are already better at that. Maybe Spellcraft, to make a lucky roll.
That's 2 Skill points for basic non human cleric, already better than Rogue at finding traps.
My Self wrote: Rogues aren't actually that *good* at skills, they just have more skills that they're mediocre to decent at. Oh yeah, I kinda meant "many skill points", not actually "good at skills". Even though many devs seem to think that having many skills is totally awesome and powerful.
My Self wrote: Derklord wrote: Why would "every one at the table" expect a rogue to handle traps? Genre convention.
This genre convention is stricktly pre-Pathfinder, isn't it? I didn't play any D&D, so I'd be grateful if anyone could give me some insight were this genre convention came from, and why it's not true in Pathtfinder. Did unlimited Detect Magic cantrip replace looking for magical traps? Were rogues necessary because of the skill system and no one else had Disable Devise as a class skill? Were traps somehow less avoidable than they are in PF?
@MajorMishap: Unchained Knife Master Scout is totally fine. I don't think TWF ist good for a low level campaign, though - TWF takes a lot too keep up with two-handed weapons even on a full attack with sneak attack.
How does your UC Rogue get pounce or movement as a free or swift action? You have to get to the enemy to use all those attacks (otherwise, you hit just the once). How do you plan to get to the enemy and full attack?
Derklord wrote: Were rogues necessary because of the skill system and no one else had Disable Devise as a class skill? Were traps somehow less avoidable than they are in PF?
1E and 2E they were the only class that could detect a traps or try to disarm them, other than the old marine-corp mine-detecting method.
I house rule it similar now in PF. non-rogues take a -3 to detecting things like pits, tripwires, pressure plates and similar mechanical device traps. But only rogues can attempt to find traps in locks, on most items like a chest, etc. And only rogues can use Disable on a trap.
Greg.Everham wrote: How does your UC Rogue get pounce or movement as a free or swift action? You have to get to the enemy to use all those attacks (otherwise, you hit just the once). How do you plan to get to the enemy and full attack? I honestly don't know enough about the mechanics to answer these questions. I was going to follow a build that I found satisfactory to the flavor of the character I want to play and try it out, picking and choosing what I did or didn't follow based on whether I was having fun playing the character
Now however, I've been given the option of using a 15 point buy or using rolls I just made using roll20 with my GM which are: 15, 12, 10, 15, 11, 13.
Now if I'm still going to make this rogue, it'll probably be
STR- 10, INT- 12, DEX- 15, WIS- 13, CON- 15, Cha- 11.
But I'm not sure I want my rogue to be so low on Dex (comparatively to my previous scores) since he'll be all the more squishy and it will be that much harder to qualify for feats.
I think I'll get the other players' ideas for characters and try to find three that want to form a party. It'll be much easier than us making four characters with completely different skill and combat capabilities and leaving an aspect of the game relatively untouched because no one thought to ask anyone else what they were going to drum up!
So thank you all for your time and advice, it was all very helpful. When I get my next character idea together and planned out, I'll post it up on another thread and hopefully it'll stand up to your critiques! ^^
/salute
Ehhh . . . Even though the stats you rolled are technically higher than a 15 point-buy, I'd just use the 15 point-buy to start with a 18 Dex (16 +2 racial). It may seem like a small difference, but for a 3/4 BAB class, every bonus to accuracy that you can get is worth it.
If you're playing for character, any type of mechanical advice seems out of place. What you're asking for is some pretty differential builds. Switch hitters are awful, unfortunately; but everything else is rather easy to piece together.
Skills will net you utility out of combat. Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge skills, Intimidate, Perception, Stealth, Acrobatics. Not in any particular order (really... reverse order of importance). Toss a point into Swim and Climb, just to be good-enough at them. Disable Device if you want to pick locks or disable traps, but I *highly* recommend you leave those roles to the barbarian, as he's much better at it. Use Magic Device if you want to be able to buff yourself with wands (and you most definitely do).
Debuffing enemies can be a powerful build if you do it right. I would recommend, if you're not tied to race, being a Skulking Slayer (Half-Orc Archetype). It opens up a neat-o trick where when you sneak attack, you can instead perform a Dirty Trick. So... You trade damage on your first attack for blinding them. Then, trade more damage for other debuffs with remaining attacks. Sure, they can spend a standard action to remove the blindness on their turn, but you've very denied them a turn AND left a ton of other debuffs on them.
Alternatively, you can try to go with the Enforcer build, which is best for Magus, but Rogue could us it, too. You hit with a non-lethal weapon (whip, sap) and intimidate as a free action. If it's a cruel weapon, you can sicken, as well. Magus does it better because they can do a Frostbite spell (sometimes with Rime metamagic) to add Fatigue as a debuff (or Entangled with Rime).
ElSilverWind wrote: Ehhh . . . Even though the stats you rolled are technically higher than a 15 point-buy, I'd just use the 15 point-buy to start with a 18 Dex (16 +2 racial). It may seem like a small difference, but for a 3/4 BAB class, every bonus to accuracy that you can get is worth it. I'm seeing that more and more as I go through the various builds that cover later levels. I might go for an Arcane Archer at this point, using this build as a template for it, along with its suggestion on a 15 point buy stat array.
Does it look like a solid plan for an Arcane Archer?
Although the builds I'm going for differ greatly in flavor and gameplay, I'm looking to play a character highly skilled in their chosen weapon mastery and way of fighting. While this could have been an irascible Rogue that loves his daggers perhaps a bit too much, I could change it to the proud and sharp-eyed Archer with a history of magic in his family's past. The character concept will change just a few details if I switch out from the rogue to this build I'm considering.
Here's another suggestions - this is something I'm building/working on for PFS.
Race: Elf
1) level 1 Magus Archetype Spire Defender.
Feat: Butterfly's Sting. Class abilities: Arcane Pool, Spells, Spell Combat, Feat: Combat Expertise, Feat: Dodge
2) level 1 Unchained Rogue
Class Abilities: Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack 1d6, Trapfinding
3) level 2 Spire Defender (Magus)
Class Ability Spell Strike, Feat: Combat Casting
4) level 2 Unchained Rogue
Class Abilities: Evasion, Rogue talent - Weapon Focus: Rapier
5) level 3 Spire Defender (Magus)
Feat: Weapon focus: Touch Attacks. Class Abilities: Arcane - Close Range.
6) Unchained Rogue rest of levels.
What I like about this build -
Magus Archetype Spire Defender give you access to a nice selection of feats right at the start, access to a bunch of mage spells (Shield will be your go to spell for bumping your defense), a fake TWF using the Arcane Mark cheat, and access to a bunch of knowledge skills (makes ID monsters easier, specially with all those skill ranks you'll be picking up with Rogue levels.)
You'll also get a 30' attack cantrip you can use at range to get that first round SA damage in while monsters are still flatfooted.
Butterfly's Sting allows you to pass you're crits onto the next person's melee attack. This does depend on you having a brute in your party using a big 2handed-weapon.
Con -
You're kind of weak compared to other classes the first couple of levels but it does work out pretty good in the mid, to upper levels.
You take a hit in your BAB but can get around this by making Touch Attacks with Ray of Frost, dealing SA damage and applying Unchained Rogue ability: Debilitating Injury, lowering the targets AC and then following up with a Rapier attack (at 7th level). Then there's also you're Arcane Pool (limited) you can use to enhance the plusses on your weapon.
I like the idea of it, but my buddy is already making a martial melee class with a certain magus archetype (I can't for the life of me remember the name, just that it had a ki pool and could provide elemental damage to attacks) and a draconic bloodline sorcerer for dragon disciple. The only other confirmed character is an Android Gunslinger.
And I'd love to utilize Arcane Mark like that, but my GM will probably houserule against it. My buddy says that it isn't valid because it isn't a true touch "attack".
This campaign will run us to level 6, but I'm unsure what the plan is for after and if this character I'm rolling will be able to come into its glory by the campaign end. While optimizing isn't a primary concern for me over sticking to the character's key traits, I do want to be relevant in terms of usefulness as well as combat strength.
And the feat intense URogue line of builds is a bit daunting for such a prospect. Let's say my flanking buddy will be the Magus/Draconic Sorcerer, would a Rogue really be of use? What happens when he grows wings and my squishy URogue with puny dagger and rapier are left holding the bag? haha I think a character that does reasonable melee damage, good stalling of enemies (so the Gunslinger can let 'er rip), and maybe some out of combat skills. These reasons are why I wanted to go into Arcane Archer, who has magical spells and great ranged damage, keeping Mr. Squishy where he belongs, in the back. This would also help cover the weakness of that dreaded 1 that would leave the Gunslinger's firearms broken.
A Strength Patron Witch can make a deadly Eldritch Knight switch-hitter, since they gain Divine Favor as well as other combat buffs. Using one level of Inspired Blade Swashbuckler for the martial requirement means you can do rapier easily as well - you even get Swashbuckler parrying, which can be done with a bow in a pinch.
How your GM/group handles "pre-buffing" makes a big difference, but generally speaking, casting one buff on "round 0" as a battle begins should be pretty easy to do. Having Divine Favor at full caster level with Magical Knack and adding Fate's Favored will make any kind of combat quite potent. By level 6 you can maintain Heroism for an hour at a time for a +2 attack, while Divine Favor will add another +3 attack and +3 damage. Witch Hexes can be used for things like Flight and Cauldron, and you gain Ill Omen as a nasty no-save offensive spell that can eventually be quickened.
So I've decided to follow this build down to the tee, gee aren't I creative?~ I've decided to do this just to get a feel for a character that moves to middle level via a planned journey. I'll post the build up to level 6. Thanks for all the input guys, you've been a great boon to the cause!
Elven Fighter 1/ Wizard 5(Later Levels advised are 3 levels AA and 5 levels EK)
After all racial mods:
Str 10 |Dex 18 | Con 10 | Int 17 | Wis 10 | Chr 7
Ability Score investment plan is Dex(x2), Int(x3), back to start until 20, although I may not agree with this in the long run.
Traits: Reactionary, Magical Knack
Feats: (1st)Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot; (3rd) Precise Shot: (5th) Weapon Focus (Longbow Composite); (6th) Arcane Strike
For the Skills, I'll add to Stealth, Acrobatics, Perception, Spellcraft, Knowledges (Nat, Arca, Relig, Planes, (Dun), Int, Ride, Climb, Swim, Survival.
Suggest you take a look at the Slayer -
Slayer is a Rogue/Ranger Hybrid build, allowing you to pick up the Rangers TWF feat chain & the Rogues Trapfinding skills by using the Slayer Talents.
For what it sounds like what you want to do, you gain more then you would loose going with the Slayer or the Unchained Rogue.
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