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My buddy would like to make an Esoteric Magus in a module running to sixth level. He really likes the flavor of an unarmed melee caster with the ability to add elemental properties to unarmed attacks.

He was looking into making a Dex based build on a 15 point buy.

Now, he's a bit concerned about his perception and his Wis stat in general, since the only build he could find for an Esoteric Magus was a 20 point buy build seen here.

Now with this in mind, I suggested he just take a trait to make this a class skill, then just invest in Perception so that his negative mod in Wis doesn't hurt his checks too bad.

Any ideas or suggestions for a build like this? Suggested buys? Any and all input would be appreciated, but no third party materials, please.

So I've decided to follow this build down to the tee, gee aren't I creative?~ I've decided to do this just to get a feel for a character that moves to middle level via a planned journey. I'll post the build up to level 6. Thanks for all the input guys, you've been a great boon to the cause!

Elven Fighter 1/ Wizard 5(Later Levels advised are 3 levels AA and 5 levels EK)
After all racial mods:

Str 10 |Dex 18 | Con 10 | Int 17 | Wis 10 | Chr 7

Ability Score investment plan is Dex(x2), Int(x3), back to start until 20, although I may not agree with this in the long run.

Traits: Reactionary, Magical Knack

Feats: (1st)Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot; (3rd) Precise Shot: (5th) Weapon Focus (Longbow Composite); (6th) Arcane Strike

For the Skills, I'll add to Stealth, Acrobatics, Perception, Spellcraft, Knowledges (Nat, Arca, Relig, Planes, (Dun), Int, Ride, Climb, Swim, Survival.

I like the idea of it, but my buddy is already making a martial melee class with a certain magus archetype (I can't for the life of me remember the name, just that it had a ki pool and could provide elemental damage to attacks) and a draconic bloodline sorcerer for dragon disciple. The only other confirmed character is an Android Gunslinger.

And I'd love to utilize Arcane Mark like that, but my GM will probably houserule against it. My buddy says that it isn't valid because it isn't a true touch "attack".

This campaign will run us to level 6, but I'm unsure what the plan is for after and if this character I'm rolling will be able to come into its glory by the campaign end. While optimizing isn't a primary concern for me over sticking to the character's key traits, I do want to be relevant in terms of usefulness as well as combat strength.

And the feat intense URogue line of builds is a bit daunting for such a prospect. Let's say my flanking buddy will be the Magus/Draconic Sorcerer, would a Rogue really be of use? What happens when he grows wings and my squishy URogue with puny dagger and rapier are left holding the bag? haha I think a character that does reasonable melee damage, good stalling of enemies (so the Gunslinger can let 'er rip), and maybe some out of combat skills. These reasons are why I wanted to go into Arcane Archer, who has magical spells and great ranged damage, keeping Mr. Squishy where he belongs, in the back. This would also help cover the weakness of that dreaded 1 that would leave the Gunslinger's firearms broken.

Although the builds I'm going for differ greatly in flavor and gameplay, I'm looking to play a character highly skilled in their chosen weapon mastery and way of fighting. While this could have been an irascible Rogue that loves his daggers perhaps a bit too much, I could change it to the proud and sharp-eyed Archer with a history of magic in his family's past. The character concept will change just a few details if I switch out from the rogue to this build I'm considering.

Ehhh . . . Even though the stats you rolled are technically higher than a 15 point-buy, I'd just use the 15 point-buy to start with a 18 Dex (16 +2 racial). It may seem like a small difference, but for a 3/4 BAB class, every bonus to accuracy that you can get is worth it.

I'm seeing that more and more as I go through the various builds that cover later levels. I might go for an Arcane Archer at this point, using this build as a template for it, along with its suggestion on a 15 point buy stat array.

Does it look like a solid plan for an Arcane Archer?

How does your UC Rogue get pounce or movement as a free or swift action? You have to get to the enemy to use all those attacks (otherwise, you hit just the once). How do you plan to get to the enemy and full attack?

I honestly don't know enough about the mechanics to answer these questions. I was going to follow a build that I found satisfactory to the flavor of the character I want to play and try it out, picking and choosing what I did or didn't follow based on whether I was having fun playing the character

Now however, I've been given the option of using a 15 point buy or using rolls I just made using roll20 with my GM which are: 15, 12, 10, 15, 11, 13.

Now if I'm still going to make this rogue, it'll probably be
STR- 10, INT- 12, DEX- 15, WIS- 13, CON- 15, Cha- 11.
But I'm not sure I want my rogue to be so low on Dex (comparatively to my previous scores) since he'll be all the more squishy and it will be that much harder to qualify for feats.

I think I'll get the other players' ideas for characters and try to find three that want to form a party. It'll be much easier than us making four characters with completely different skill and combat capabilities and leaving an aspect of the game relatively untouched because no one thought to ask anyone else what they were going to drum up!

So thank you all for your time and advice, it was all very helpful. When I get my next character idea together and planned out, I'll post it up on another thread and hopefully it'll stand up to your critiques! ^^

/salute

So I've been perusing the many guides and stumbled across this one, The Twirler.

This seems to be exactly what I was looking for in terms of style of fighting. My question is the feat line provided. Can I take the URogue instead of the regular core if I use two Archetypes? This is mostly to cut down on feat costs with Weapon Finesse with URogue's bonus feat.

I'm not too worried about later levels right now, as the campaign should get us to level 6 at most. Is this too low a level a campaig for a build such as this to come online?

My second option is an Archer, but that too is feat intensive and involves the same concerns I have for this build.

Multiclassing just enough to pick up a powerful combat boost can be very useful on a Rogue, since it can make a major difference to combat stats. Two simple examples:

1)take one level of Urban Barbarian to gain the Controlled Rage ability, which grants +4DEX and the ability to use a Furious weapon (better weapon enhancement while using Rage), and doesn't lower AC or prevent skills. The only real drawback is that the Extra Rage feat is needed to gain more rounds of Rage per day, but it's fairly generous.

2)take three levels of Weapon Master Fighter to gain the Weapon Training feature (+1 to attack and damage), and then pick up Gloves of Dueling when possible (+2 more attack and damage from Weapon Training). As a side-bonus, you get two bonus feats.

Either one of these options adds a major upgrade to basic combat ability. There's a also feat that adds back Sneak Attack if you multiclass several levels.

Multiclassing is definitely not necessary, but you can add a lot to a Rogue with it.

I think I'll take that three levels of Weapon Master, more for the flavor of mastering daggers and other similar small blades. That flavor of mastery makes good rolellaying synergy with the knifemaster archetype of the Urogue. That's what I'll want to level until I feel that my character becpmes the rogue I've always wanted to play. For his style I'll be going down the TWF and TW Feint line of feats which I hear are both very heavy in prerequisites.

As I have my stats right now, I'm not sure I want such a low Str score if I start as a fighter. I've been planning on going full unchained Rogue and haven't gone this avenue at all before the benefits and brainstorming about a rich character.

The second arranging of stats are what's on my sheet for this campaign in the works that he guarantees will bring us to level 6. So what stats would I need? Rn I'm obviously gunning for a two weapon fighting rogue that can hack and stab from the shadows and maybe conjure up a bit of shadow with the talents to supplement the sneak attack. I'm going to ask that I can substitute uncanny dodge for the Scout's first class ability. Is that asking too kuch?

I'm finding that out more and more as I delve into these character builds on the Advice board. haha

I was thinking of just continuing with the URogue with the Knife Master archetype, if only to see how it plays out. If I'm terribly disappointed, I'll probably be moving along to a Ranger switch-hitter build, or possibly a Wild Shape Druid.

I just really enjoy a character that takes a bit of inspired abstract thinking with skills to back up an out of the box solution to any problems that present themselves to my character and the party. And it seems that the SA based classes are all about positioning and choosing which tactics are best for the situation.

That being said, I love the idea of feinting with one weapon, attacking with the other, and in the later levels, getting to make all of make following attacks on a FF enemy for much more likely to hit chance, while retaining a bit of the Skill Monkey role that the Rogue fills.

Your Warpriest has Knowledge(Engineering). I'm super new to the game, but can he apply this knowledge to make some basic trip line traps with those alchemical bombs you have? If so, you could rig up one doorway without blocking an avenue of escape by simply collapsing it.

Another simple trap I could think of would be with Spark and some regular lamp oil if you have it. Have your Ninja lure them into the pool of death and have your Warpriest just chuckle as he points a finger and sets them all ablaze!

KILL IT WITH FIRE!

I don't know if I'm helping... or just an idiot that needs to read the Core Rulebook from cover to cover!

With this little tip, you just blew my mind. The wording on all of these class abilities is crazy. I guess I'm just not used to such a complicated system yet... but I WILL BE.

So you're saying, for the sake of BAB and a rather good ability at level three, that three levels of SS Brawler and then multiclassing Rogue is a better alternative?

That being said, I did read over a few of the other threads as I've pondered my character. You mentioned that later in game, the advantages are less obvious, while in the early levels they really help damage output and therefore help in surviving. Which is really important because in the last session two characters were killed and ressed as some kind of undead thrall (exact type of magic used is still a mystery).

My Paladin and I lived only because of a nat 20 Flare on a Kobold.
A freaking Flare man!

Our DM is downright evil git that makes everything so damn suspenseful that you can't help but love it.

Is that another Rogue Archetype or another class's archetype?

"At 1st level, her sneak attack damage is +1d6. This increases by 1d6 at 6th, 10th, 12th, and 20th levels. If she gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack."

So that means by sixth level or so 3 or 4d8 with the KnifeMaster SA and then I'd add the the amount of 1d6's from Snakebite Striker? And a feint can be combined with a move action? That sounds pretty damn good, especially with that action economy of feinting during a move action.

Yes, it was rolled with 4d6's, dropping the lowest one. It must be beginner's luck, but I can't seem to get bad rolls. At all. My friend that invited me into his group said that the DM might possibly switch over to the point buy system because of these ridiculous rolls.

Alright, I moved some things around and I've got a

Human
Unchained Knifemaster - 1
Str: 11
Int: 14
Dex: 19
Wis: 13
Con: 17
Cha: 16
---------
HP: 11
(Leaving out my AC as I haven't decided on gear)
Fort: 3
Reflex: 7
Will: 1
----------
Initiative: +6
CMD: 14
CMB: 0
-----------
With my ten skill points I've invested in
Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Initmidate
Knowledge(Dungeon.)
Perception
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
--------
Feats and Traits
Level 1: Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Fighting, (class bonus) Weapon Finesse

Reactionary, River Rat (and if allowed, the Paranoid drawback, picking up the Hidden Hand Trait)

Level 2: Weapon Focus: Dagger
Level 3: Deific Obedience (Pharasma)
Level 4: (Combat Trick) Quick Draw
Level 5: Two Weapon Feint
Level 6: Underhanded, Extra Talent (?) suggestions on this one?
Level 7: (Unsure again what would be best for this level since I've only played up to level 2)
Level 8: Rogue Talent, since allowed by RAW, can take Ninja Trick, to then take Combat Trick, since initial Talent taken does not share a name. This seems like pretty wishy-washy logic, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed haha Which then I'll use it to get Improved TWF. If not, I'll want to take Quick Draw at Level 3 with my new feat)
Level 9: Improved, Two Weapon Feint

And that's all I got. I have no knowledge of useful items, gear or utility respectively so all I've got is a general idea of what I want to do, but not sure how to use the system to get the results.

How's it looking so far?

I'll definitely have to ask what skills might be needed for this module my DM is designing and what kind of roles are covered by the others. I am pretty sure one will be a Tiefling Sorcerer hell bent on becoming an elemental punching machine of some kind. I'm still fuzzy on what he's attempting haha

So the Knifemaster would still be viable then? That's great bc I really liked the flavor as it fits the concept I have for the character.

Couldn't I use Combat Trick at first level to pick up TW Feint and bypass the Combat Expertise prereq or do I have to fulfill them?

Do you have a link to the thread you were discussing the build on? I don't want to ask dozens of questions when I could practice my "Web-fu"!

Thank you for taking the time to reply, now I have the proper name to narrow down the search for build guides. ^_^

My Web-fu is weak on the pitiful smart phone, sensei. Haha But thanks for the reply, I'll keep on looking!

Brand-spanking new player to Pathfinder, with only three sessions under my belt. I've played two sessions as a Magus and one as a Wizard, a couple of my favorite type of classes. Now in this next module my DM is designing, I wanted to make a fresh character far away from magic dependent classes, a Dex-based TWF Unchained Rogue.

I wanted him to be very acrobatic, able to debuff enemies in the same round as he attacks, and switch from melee to ranged as the situation demands, while maintaining his usefulness outside of combat, which is what a Rogue's place should be!

More than likely this will be accomplished with daggers, but after looking over the Knife Master archetype, I'm not sure I want to give up my trap sense and ability to use my SA with other weapons. Even though the upgrade to d8 for daggers and other similar light weapons is pretty sweet, I don't know if it's worth giving up a couple core skill of my class.

This is my build so far:
Human- Unchained Rogue: Level 1
----------------
Str: 11
Int: 13
Dex: 17+2(19)
Wis: 17
Con: 14
Cha: 16
----------------
HP: 10
----------------
10 Skill Points total at start.
Skills invested in are:
Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Knowledge (Local)
Perception
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Stealth

My favored class bonus has gone to the 1/6 towards a new Rogue talent.

Traits: Reactionary, Opportunistic (To be synergized with Combat Reflexes), (Human) Skilled

Feats: (Class bonus feat) Weapon Finesse, TWF, and Weapon Focus: Dagger [Human Bonus- (URT)Weapon Training]

I was thinking of going into the TW Improved Feint Line, so I can debuff my enemies in the same round as I attack, but I don't quite get it as I've yet to play any kind of stealth character in PF. What other feats should be taken to compliment this play style? Am I trying to do too much at once?

Help would be greatly appreciated! As this is my first time posting here, any constructive criticism is also welcome if I'm lacking in my description of how I want to run this character!