Archetypes and improving features


Rules Questions


I have troubles with a rule on how archetypes are applied to class features, and it's causing my group a lot of headaches. I've long searched for clarifications, but this is barely adressed anywhere.

The rule is the following:

"If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue."

Ok, so it gives the example of sneak attack, weapon training and favoured enemy, ok, great; but which feature count as improving and which don't?

For example, does a monk flurry of blows count as improving at 8th and 15th level? So if i take the Master of Many Style archetype, i get 1 flurry attack at 8th and a second at 15th in addition to more styles to fuse?

What about high jump, does it count as improving every level so if i lose this feature i get one level less on the total but basically still having it (i.e. Monk of the Sacred Mountain)?

Does gaining 2nd level spells count as improving your ability to cast spells? So, a Skirmisher Ranger or a Warrior of the Holy Light Paladin still gain spells, just with a 3 level delay?

Our GM is worried about balance because he fears that if he lets any class feature that vaguely improves qualify, having archetypes would most of the time be the way to go cause instead of giving different features, it actually gives more.


The biggest thing I can think of is that something has to say it specifically takes out 1 step of the ability.

Like an archetype that says trade out the increase to sneak at lv3. Or trade out the increase to Favored Enemy at lv6. Then it's trading out of an increasing ability.

If it says trades out sneak attack or favored enemy, then it's trading out all of that ability.

So since nothing says it trades out a part of flurry it trades out all of flurry. Same with high jump, if it's not removing part of it it's removing all of it. Same with spells, if you're not trading out a specific improvement then you're trading out the entire ability.

Thus it doesn't matter if it was an improving one or not since you're losing all of it.


That's actually a great reading. Huge thanks.

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