I get that any class can *have* spellcraft ranked up, but without magic to actually back it up (specifically Detect Magic, although other spells can and do also apply), what is the point?
If a Lore Warden puts ranks in Spellcraft, what good did that actually do the character? Yes, you can identify spells as they are being cast, but you can't counter those spells, and you can't do anything to those spells once they are in place. You just get to know it's there, which you probably already knew since you just watched the caster cast a spell on him/herself.
I've seen people post that ranks in Know: Arcana and Spellcraft on their non-casters has helped them in the past.
Know:Arcana makes sense.
Spellcraft... I don't see how?
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It is exactly for identifying spells, and melee characters can counter them just as easily by taking readied actions.
Or in the case of a caster saying they're going to cast a certain spell but you're able to realize they're going to cast another.
Also, and probably used more often, is that Spellcraft is used to identify magic items.
Except you don't need Spellcraft to ready an action to interrupt a casting - In fact, you have to decide to ready your action before you even know if a casting is going to happen, so how did it help here?
As for being able to tell if a caster is lying about what spell they're going to cast, sure, I suppose. I've never seen an enemy caster just blurting out strategy, even in an attempt to mislead, but sure, I guess?
And as for identifying magic items, you can't just roll a Spellcraft check and know what a magic thing does; you have to cast Detect Magic/Identify/Etc. as well, which is something a non-caster can't do.
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Knowing what spell was cast can be useful. As an example if he just cast summon monster which is a full round action to complete you can go over and smack him in the face before that summon appears.
The spells he is casting may also change whether or not to make him a priority. If he is casting mostly buff spells you might not have to deal with him right now, but if he is casting spells such as finger of death or flesh to stone you might want to take him down before you lose a party member.
So there we see the value of having Spellcraft in the party, but how is it beneficial on the non-Caster when the Caster could just be informing the party of his roll results?
Or is it just a matter of redundancy? (ie: The more people rolling, the more likely to get a successful roll?)
It is also useful for knowing that the monster the mage just summoned is actually an illusion, so can be safely ignored.
So there we see the value of having Spellcraft in the party, but how is it beneficial on the non-Caster when the Caster could just be informing the party of his roll results?Or is it just a matter of redundancy?
Not every party will have a caster. (Granted, such a party would be very rare among players). Sometimes the party splits up, or the caster is down. Having all of your eggs in one basket isn't very smart.
If you have a bunch of casters in your party with Spellcraft, the non-casters don't really need it. (Note that one is not a bunch.)
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Also useful if you plan to use Use Magic Device. You need to decipher a scroll before you can cast it.
And as for identifying magic items, you can't just roll a Spellcraft check and know what a magic thing does; you have to cast Detect Magic/Identify/Etc. as well, which is something a non-caster can't do.
As it is a cantrip, a magic item of detect magic is cheap. 900gp for a command activated, unlimited use item.
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So there we see the value of having Spellcraft in the party, but how is it beneficial on the non-Caster when the Caster could just be informing the party of his roll results?
Or is it just a matter of redundancy? (ie: The more people rolling, the more likely to get a successful roll?)
The party caster could not be conscious.
The party could be split<---Yeah, I know bad idea.The party caster might not have taken spellcraft. <---I have seen it.
The party caster might flub the roll. It happens.
I will double up on the previous one and say line of sight or perception penalties may be an issue for the party caster. Fog Cloud and other abilities do make this happen.
I guess my answers come down to redundancy as the best reason, but my previous post is still valid IMHO.
PS: How many skill points the non-caster has, and the party makeup also factor into this. A slayer can do this and still have skill points left for other things. The fighter with 2+int, might want to invest in other skills.
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I have a lore warden PFS fighter whose ranks in Spellcraft actually made a huge difference once, though I freely acknowledge it was sort of a once-in-a-lifetime situation and highly unlikely to ever come up again. We were playing in a certain scenario that I won't spoil other than to say we really needed to make a Spellcraft check; our highly optimized wizard nat-1'd it and failed the DC, several other people with lesser spellcrafts took a crack at it to no effect.
I have a wand of detect magic with that character (cheap enough at 375; I have a decent UMD), so was able to analyze the item in question and then, once everybody had thrown every skill buff possible at me to boost my skill bonus on the check, I rolled a spellcraft and successfully ID'd the thing that we needed to ID.
So: in short, sometimes it is handy! But best when paired with a wand of Det Mag. Even if you have a mere +2 or +3 to activate that wand, if it's a non-time-sensitive situation and you don't roll a 1 and nerf the wand, you'll manage it eventually.
Also useful if you plan to use Use Magic Device. You need to decipher a scroll before you can cast it.
And as for identifying magic items, you can't just roll a Spellcraft check and know what a magic thing does; you have to cast Detect Magic/Identify/Etc. as well, which is something a non-caster can't do.As it is a cantrip, a magic item of detect magic is cheap. 900gp for a command activated, unlimited use item.
As far as WBL, yes. The action economy of detect magic is poor for identifying spells as they are being cast.
On the role-playing side, it can help "explain" or "justify" a non-caster "suddenly" multiclassing into a caster class: They were studying how to do it all along.
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As far as WBL, yes. The action economy of detect magic is poor for identifying spells as they are being cast.
The item of detect magic would only be needed for identifying magical items, which is something you don't generally do in combat anyway. Detect magic is totally unnecessary for identifying spells as they are cast.
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I took spellcraft on my fighter so he would have a rough knowledge of spells and be able to suggest reasonable combinations when organizing the party for combat. His in game knowledge allows me (the player) to ask our group casters if they know spells of X or Y and suggest ways to use them for our group and allows my character to better understand their abilities.
In character he studies small unit tactics and combined arms as he is something of a tactician combing magic and melee tactics.
Plus it lets him try to ID spells in combat as others have posted and the more in a group who can do that the better IMO, especially if the casters cannot see the enemy casting and he can.
Spellcraft is one of the most important skills in Pathfinder, because it tells you about magic, which is far and away the most dangerous thing in pathfinder.
Information is more valuable that combat stats when you realize the encounter you are approaching will wipe the party and avoid it. Just see Rappan Athuk for this. I wish to high heaven that my spellcraft was 10 higher than it is.
Besides, core items that let any user cast detect magic at will are cheap. You can absolutely benefit from what is essentially "magical perception".
In addition, magical items are tightly packed sources of wealth. Being able to recognize that you are holding a powerful one is a good indication you should get back to town.
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On the readied action question, Spellcraft still lets you pick your target. If you don't know if any of the enemies are spellcasters, you can say you'll ready to attack any enemy that casts a spell. You don't have to take your readied action when the condition comes up - it's still optional. So identify the first spell being cast and decide if it's worth interrupting, or if you'd rather wait to see if the enemies have a second spellcaster. That way, you can let the enemy cleric cast Bless on the front line enemies, while stopping the enemy wizard from blasting you with a Fireball.
Is it free? If your character grew up in Enchantia, they probably get spellcraft as a class skill, 2 points. Then if you have it, use it.
Or is it just a matter of redundancy? (ie: The more people rolling, the more likely to get a successful roll?)
Well, people often do the same thing with knowledge checks.
Just look at spellcraft as knowledge(spells) on a noncaster. If you have the extra skill point to spare, why not give yourself a little more insurance when it comes to knowing how the laws of the universe are being bent to someone's whims.