Penalties while Prone

[Sarta]

"Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)."

Does the term "melee attack rolls" also apply to natural attacks or combat maneuvers?

In the Combat chapter, Melee Attacks are their own category of attacks -- different from Natural Attacks and Combat Maneuvers. So, does the penalty from being prone apply only to the Melee Attack action or all forms of attack rolls while in melee?

I'm hoping to find a RAW source, since this will have PFS applicability.

[Deighton Thrane]

It says right in the natural attacks "Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks..." so it's pretty clear applies to natural weapons.

[Morgen]

Natural attacks are explicitly called out as being melee attacks as Deighton pointed out.

Combat maneuvers are mostly done in place of a melee attack and suffer from those same bonuses and penalties. Grappling however should not.

[Sarta]

Morgen wrote:

Combat maneuvers are mostly done in place of a melee attack and suffer from those same bonuses and penalties. Grappling however should not.

If Combat Maneuvers are done "in place of a (the) melee attack", doesn't this by definition men's they are NOT melee attacks and therefore should not suffer the same penalties?

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Combat Maneuver rolls are defined as attack rolls. I don't see the word "melee" but they're certainly not ranged attack rolls....

[Blymurkla]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Combat Maneuver rolls are defined as attack rolls. I don't see the word "melee" but they're certainly not ranged attack rolls....

Unless you make a ranged trip attempt with bolas. There's probably a whole host of other examples of ranged combat manoeuvres.

On a related note, can you use special attacks while prone? Like a breath weapon. Would that incur any penalty?

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Blymurkla wrote:

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Combat Maneuver rolls are defined as attack rolls. I don't see the word "melee" but they're certainly not ranged attack rolls....

Unless you make a ranged trip attempt with bolas. There's probably a whole host of other examples of ranged combat manoeuvres.

Point. So some are ranged attacks and some are melee attacks. It should be pretty clear at playtime which are which.

[Gwen Smith]

From the PRD under Combat Maneuver Bonus (emphasis mine):

"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."

Unless you are making a ranged combat maneuver, prone penalties apply. Note that there are very few ranged weapons that can be used while prone (crossbow by default, gun and sling with additional feats). There are currently many, many arguments about whether throwing a melee weapon makes it count as a "ranged weapon" (instead of just a "ranged attack" with a melee weapon), so ask your GM about that before you rely on it.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Sarta wrote:

"Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow)."

Does the term "melee attack rolls" also apply to natural attacks or combat maneuvers?

Your quote is incomplete. From PRD:

Quote:

Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Unclear on combat maneuvers, but it would apply to natural melee attacks (not sure, but I think there are a few natural ranged attacks).

I'm inclined to believe that combat maneuvers are unaffected, as CMD is also unaffected. You'd still be required to describe to the GM a combat maneuver that could reasonably be attempted while prone. And the GM would reasonably have you provoke for any movement related to combat maneuvers while prone (crawling).

I will add that Firearms can also be fired while prone. This is detailed specifically in Ultimate Combat.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

I'm inclined to believe that combat maneuvers are unaffected, as CMD is also unaffected.

Not true.

Combat wrote:

Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.

[Cavall]

I'd think it's harder to disarm someone while lying on your back.

Ironically easier to throw sand in their face.

Probably pretty hard to bull rush too.

-4 to the CMB seems more than sensible. If you're using your melee attacks for maneuvers than the penalty should apply to both.

[Murdock Mudeater]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

I'm inclined to believe that combat maneuvers are unaffected, as CMD is also unaffected.

Not true.

Combat wrote:

Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.

Ah, good call. Then, yeah, melee combat maneuvers should be limited. You'd be able to make a solid argument that the penalties don't exist to AC against ranged attacks, so a few spells and that archer fighter archetype shouldn't be affected on their CMB or on their target's CMD when making ranged combat maneuvers.

On a side note, any clue if the prone AC bonus applies ranged touch attacks?

[Murdock Mudeater]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Murdock Mudeater wrote:

I'm inclined to believe that combat maneuvers are unaffected, as CMD is also unaffected.

Not true.

Combat wrote:

Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.

Though, actually, thinking about it more. It is notable that this is an indirect feature of being prone. So feats and such that remove the penalties to attack or to AC while prone are also indirectly removing the penalties to CMB and CMD.