Replacing Sins of the Saviors [spoilers]

[Tinalles]

I'm thinking of either substantially rewriting Sins or else dropping it entirely.

Reasons for doing this:

In reading over Sins of the Saviors, it sounds as though the adventure expects that the PCs will periodically be able to leave Runeforge via Plane Shift, rest, recuperate, go shopping, and then Plane Shift back.

Due to multiclassing, my PCs are far behind the usual expectations regarding access to spells. The party lacks a cleric, and the only arcane casters are a Bard 10 and a Rogue 3/Wiz 3/AT 4. They won't have Teleport until level 12. Plane Shift won't become available until 16. This poses some major difficulties:

1) Once they go into Runeforge, they'll be stuck there with no escape until they manage to carve their way through the Halls of Wrath, simply because there's no one in the party who will be capable of casting Plane Shift. They could use a bunch of scrolls, but 7th level wizard scrolls are not cheap.

2) If one of them dies, there's no way to introduce a new PC unless that PC has some way to get to Runeforge or is one of the NPCs who's already there.

3) Meanwhile, there's no opportunity to develop story lines connected to Magnimar or Sandpoint. I've got quite a few of those going on, and the players won't be happy to be cut off from them for so long. (If past performance is any indication, it will take about a real-time year to play through the book.)

Plus Sins is a giant dungeon crawl immediately following on the heels of a large dungeon crawl (Fortress of the Stone Giants). I like dungeon crawls okay, but variety is also nice.

Since the book is essentially seven small dungeon crawls, one thought I had was that I could take each wing of Runeforge and place it on the Material Plane, and run them as separate areas. That would change a lot, but let me re-use at least some of the material.

Some rough ideas:

- The Scribbler's rhyme would become clues to the need to forge powerful weapons/gear to take on Karzoug, with hints as to what they need and where to go to get it. The PCs main task would still be forging the appropriate weapons to deal with Karzoug, but I might add some way to get some juiced-up staves or something for the PCs who mostly use spells instead of weapons.

- I would need to invent something for the Abjurant Halls.

- The Ravenous Crypts could be run more or less as written, maybe placed in Belkzen not far from Xin-Gastash. Azaven has just woken up and is looking for ways to oppose Karzoug and revive Zutha.

- The Vaults of Greed could be put inside a monument somewhere in Varisia. Maybe under Riddleport? Ordikon would need new backstory.

- The Iron Cages of Lust I would probably throw out entirely, replacing it with something in Korvosa. Maybe one of those supremely-talented enchanters from the Acadamae stumbled into some relic of Sorshen's and is trying to find out what happened to her.

- The Shimmering Veils I might keep as a demiplane, but build in an exit of its own (maybe leaping through a mirror that reflects the real world instead of the Veils). Vraxeris is easy - he died aaaaaaages ago, and his simulacra are still faithfully following their last order to keep him from being disturbed. As written.

- The Festering Maze I would turn into an actual swamp, possibly on the western edge of Nirmathas -- I think Haruka extended that far over. Jordimandus would really LIKE to go bring Krune back, but it's just SO much effort, and anyway he's got this demonic heart thing tying him down, and wouldn't the PCs prefer just to take a nap? Some of the other encounters would need to be rewritten.

- The Halls of Wrath is harder, because it assumes a population of living wizards serving Alaznist. Also, Bakrakhan is mostly on the bottom of the ocean these days, which poses certain difficulties for land-dwelling wrath wizards. Not sure what to do about this one.

- I would put Arkhryst at the very end as the guardian of the Runeforge pool itself (now a stand-alone area without surrounding dungeons). The Karzoug statue could be run as written. I got the mini for him, and by all the gods, I am GOING to plonk that down on the table and watch them squirm!

One problem I see with this is that the PCs would need some reason to go to each of these places, rather than to just the 3 they need in order to create domineering weapons. That bears thinking on.

Has anyone else done anything similar, either splitting up or entirely replacing Sins of the Saviors? What did you do? How did it go?

[ckdragons]

I like the idea of placing the entrances spread across the area. It would make sense with the Runelords being in different territories.

My group is finishing Runeforge this week. I played it almost as is, though I did drop the "sins" benefits/penalties. I also added Arkrhyst in the Halls of Wraith (he followed the party into Runeforge, but was drawn into the Halls because of his vengeful mind-state). It's making for a truly epic fight (the party had to retreat once already).

Back to your point, my group was indeed trapped. Even with the single classed sorcerer and oracle, they don't have access to plane shift. However, resting hasn't been an issue once they figured out the pattern of the disjuction effect in Abjurant Halls. They having been camping in the room with the ethillion. Fairly safe since there's a nasty trap waiting for anything trying to hunt them down.

My suggestion with the party having no cleric, you may want to thrown out a few wands of cure light/moderate wounds on the baddies. That will help the party without increasing the power cure of the encounters.

[Nargemn]

Having run Sins of the Saviors only a few months ago, I hope I can help some. I think Runeforge presents an interesting opportunity for players to sort of 'leap back in time' to see how thing were in ancient Thassilon. In addition, rewriting all of this content would probably be a big headache on you - the APs are so useful because we don't have to do all of the crazy footwork!

That said, Runeforge can feel like a long drag, as it's a lot of the same dungeon crawl with slightly different themes. There's also an issue of it not feeling large enough to be the research facility/living space/common ground it's supposed to be. I imagine this is because of space issues when the book was being written.

As far as your issue is with not having anyone to teleport, my PCs didn't experience too much of an issue clearing Runeforge, and they didn't have their own way to teleport until halfway through. If you're worried that the encounters will wear too much on them, you could have them find stockpiles of healing potions, wands, or the like. It would only make sense to me that a group of wizards would keep such a thing on hand.

[Landon Winkler]

My group never left the Runeforge and didn't have any problems with it. They were just careful to make allies (or clear out areas) so they had safe places to rest. There was more roleplaying than a normal dungeon crawl precisely because they were stuck there.

On an unrelated note, I kick myself for not foreshadowing the sinswords (like Chellan in Book 6) so the characters have some idea of the gravity of what they're getting hit with. The swords were made in the Runeforge, so it makes sense that there are some murals or records or whatever.

The interesting things about the Runeforge for my group were the interplay between the sides, the glimpse into old Thassilon, and the backstory. It'd be a lot of work to carry those over into eight separate dungeons.

Perhaps instead each wing has magical defense the PCs have to figure out how to bypass (with research in the outside world)? Or the pool can be used to view the real world and project images into it?

Cheers!
Landon

[Wicked Woodpecker of the West]

Idea.

Central place of Runeforge is as written, but wings of Runeforge are distinct localities connected with central pool via portals (to allow researchers their meetings).

After heroes came down they discover only portals too Abjurant Halls and Shimering Whatever are working - rest was destroyed in a battle between Abjurant and rest of the guys.

Heroes need to create divergent weapon from all seven sinful energies to allow it to overcome hardness of soul lens. Give Karzoug two or three mythic ranks to make "destroy lens and run" more compelling idea than "slay Karzoug".

[Latrecis]

I could swear someone was out here in the RotRL forum talking about doing something similar to the OP to Sins but heck if I can find it. The idea, as I recall, was similar to Wicked Woodpecker's suggestion - the regional areas are all connected to the central Runeforge by extra-dimentional portals or gates of some sort.

I get the OP's reluctance on serial dungeon crawls but these areas are pretty different from Jorgenfist. And, I'm too lazy to do all the rework - to steal Nargemn's idea: that's why I use an AP! The OP's own cautionary note on giving the pc's a reason to visit all 7 areas is well taken - if they are individually hard to find and hard to reach, they could arguably skip 3 or 4. Of note the AP assumes the pc's leave Book 5 with the xp from all 7 wings.

I'd chime in with the others - a group of pc's would not necessarily need to leave Runeforge to rest and recover. The various wings appear to have almost no contact or interaction with each other, so if a group of pc's were to take out all the occupants of one wing or another, they could easily lay up there for days with no chance of interruption. The bigger problem is dealing with negative outcomes like being turned to stone that rely on high level spells being available for "fixing."

I'm a little confused at the OP's pc's: they appear to only be 10th level. That's dangerously low for this phase of Book 5. The progression in the AP assumes the pc's are 14th level before entering Runeforge.

One last nit: teleport would not be useful for the OP's pc's even if they had it - Runeforge is its own demi-plane and while teleport would work within it, the spell cannot be used to travel to/from Runeforge.

[Tinalles]

Latrecis wrote:

I'd chime in with the others - a group of pc's would not necessarily need to leave Runeforge to rest and recover.

The bigger issue is that they spend an entire book cut off from the rest of the world.

I have one player in particular whose PC has an incredibly well-developed persona with rich, complicated ties to multiple NPCs -- romantic partners, rivals, friends, children, the whole nine yards. That player derives her enjoyment of the game primarily from developing all those relationships.

We can't meet terribly often. Generally about once a month. It'll probably take a year to get through Book 5. If all the established NPCs are unavailable because the party's stuck in Runeforge, then my player is basically not going to have any fun. For a year.

I don't think I can let that happen. The whole point of the game is to have fun, right?

Latrecis wrote:

I'm a little confused at the OP's pc's: they appear to only be 10th level. That's dangerously low for this phase of Book 5. The progression in the AP assumes the pc's are 14th level before entering Runeforge.

They're not in Runeforge yet. We're about half-way through Book 4, and on track to hit level 13 before starting Book 5.

I'm just trying to plan ahead. If I go ahead and substantially rewrite the book, that's going to take a lot of time, and I need to start long before they actually get there.

Latrecis wrote:

One last nit: teleport would not be useful for the OP's pc's even if they had it - Runeforge is its own demi-plane and while teleport would work within it, the spell cannot be used to travel to/from Runeforge.

Yes.

It's ordinarily assumed that PCs gain access to certain key abilities at specific levels. For example, once they hit five, adventure authors have to start planning for flying PCs. Once they hit 9, start planning for long distance teleportation. And so on.

I mentioned teleport primarily as an illustration of how my party is behind the curve in that regard, not because it would be useful for getting in or out of Runeforge.

[Razcar]

[Spoilers galore below]
This is, in my view, a problem with Rise of the Runelords. While the first parts of the AP are rife with great opportunities for roleplay and character development, the last half are mostly long dungeon crawls in far away locations, with little connection to the first chapters.

This can make players think this AP is one way, and then they may become disillusioned when the AP sharply shifts focus. I wouldn't be surprised if RotR was among the top "AP's-that-we-never-finished". Of course, it's up to the DM to change it if they think their group wouldn't enjoy the room-to-room hack & slash of the latter half of the AP.

As for your problem, I think the way you are trying to solve it by spreading Runeforge out might just compound it. It might be better to make Runeforge only contain the parts the PC's need (Lust and Pride) and make the rest empty - maybe make Veraxis still be alive, and he and Delvahine conquered the other wings. Otherwise you would have 7 dungeons to slog through, instead of one with two parts. The missing XP you would have to compensate through some event in Sandpoint or the environs - maybe a larger giant army is now marching from Xin-Shalast and the PC's need to forge an alliance between Riddleport, Magnimar and Korvosa to rise an army themselves? Or maybe Karzoug finds a way to commandeer the Runewell under the town, and uses it to send a rune giant to kill the PC's. Taking the fight to the enemy and all that.

At our own table we are now exploring Runeforge. I have changed a number pf things to hopefully make my group enjoy it more and stave off our own dungeon fatigue:

1. There's much more politics in our Runeforge, and less of the different wings just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the PC's to come and kill them. All the wings immediately found out about the PC's arrival (through scrying) and are trying to use their presence to their own advantage.

2. The only way for the PC's to leave Runeforge is to get out through the portal in Wrath, because of the magic in the place. They have found out that they can't use Plane Shift and are stuck, which has made them nervous. They don't yet know how to leave.

3. Lust and Pride are allied, even now after Vraxeris' death. I had Ordikon recently teleport in and kill him, instead of the way he goes in the chapter. Vraxeris' clones and Delvahine was trying to recruit the PC to attack greed. (But my PC's instead killed Delvahine and her flunkies, to free Mr. Mutt - who in our version has more information about current events inside Runeforge than in the AP. But the PC's still got some info from Delvahine about how Ordikon murdered her ally.)

4. Lamashtu is much more invested in the latter parts of the AP in our version. For example, she sent an envoy to the PC's (a burning and melting Father Tobyn) giving them tips about how to find Runeforge (The Scribbler got killed off by Karzoug's allied Ice Devil who gated in and then left). She is also sponsoring Malfeshnekor (he's now gotten 6 fighter levels and some boosted powers) who is shadowing the PC's, and have talked with them several times. Mally is now inside Runeforge after sneaking in after the PC's, and is negotiating with the Wrath wing. They will shortly attack the PC's who have made camp in Lust, since they think they are more of a threat than an asset. And Mally wants their stuff :)

5. Greed and Gluttony are forging an alliance. They will send a unit (mummies and gold golems) to attack Sloth. PC's can help Jordmandius, or just watch it unfold. Jordimandius is the one holding the secrets to how to make Runeforged weapons, which he stole from the leader of the Abjurant Halls.

6. The leader of the Abjurant Halls, Lady Brieth, is alive but polymorphed into an ooze by Ordikon and locked into the room where the Mustard Jelly was. The PC's can free her, if they understand what she really is, and ally with her against the others. She also knows how to make Runeforged weapons.

7. The only one who does not want to ally is Ordikon - he knows the PC's are enemies of his lord - and will act as such. His wing holds the maps and the way to get to Xin-Shalast though. They will get a roleplay encounter with a (now mad) gnome pathfinder who will pop up from one of the gold fish.

I will cut the first part of Chapter Six, with the brothers, and make the PC's get to Xin-Shalast quicker with the info they'll find from Ordikon. After they have made their Runeforged weapons I think they will not want to dally. I will make changes to the Eye of Averice as well where the influence from Leng will be much stronger, with nightmare episodes and weird things happening. I will switch out some guards and goons to "nighmare-versions" of old enemies. Everything to connect the different chapters more strongly, and rise the stakes even higher than just Karzoug being a threat to Varisia.

[Tinalles]

Razcar wrote:

This is, in my view, a problem with Rise of the Runelords. While the first parts of the AP are rife with great opportunities for roleplay and character development, the last half are mostly long dungeon crawls in far away locations, with little connection to the first chapters.

Agreed! Even more broadly, I think this is a symptom of difficulties with Paizo's approach to writing adventure paths. It's extremely difficult to maintain tone and internal consistency when you have six different authors writing each chapter.

I think they buckled down and got some stronger editorial controls in place for later APs, but particularly in the earlier ones it's very obvious when authors have diverging interests.

I like your retake on Sins. I'll have to do a bunch more thinking and see if I want to replace it or do something like what you did. Thanks!

[Razcar]

Tinalles wrote:

Agreed! Even more broadly, I think this is a symptom of difficulties with Paizo's approach to writing adventure paths. It's extremely difficult to maintain tone and internal consistency when you have six different authors writing each chapter.

I think they buckled down and got some stronger editorial controls in place for later APs, but particularly in the earlier ones it's very obvious when authors have diverging interests.

Yeah that sounds very likely - although they themselves would surely attribute this to "lack of space", which seems to be their go-to excuse when a product contains mistakes, inconsistencies and/or a faltering focus... ;) My sarcasm aside, mea culpa, I'm now reading Hell's Rebels, and it's nice to see how much they've improved in this very department. I have not finished reading it, but so far the mix of roleplay and rollplay is great, the common thread is strong, [mild spoiler] and there's some reappearing villains - which all good campaigns need IMO. Of course, that doesn't help the last chapters of RotR :)

[Ckorik]

As an alternative - you can always give them a magic item in Scribbler's lair that lets them plane shift once a day.

This not only gives them a way back - but it means if they use it and left enemies up - they'll have time to heal/prep for their return. And if your players are as scattered in levels/spells as you suggest - a hard magic item only requires the spell be on their class list to use - not a use magic device or possible scroll fail.

Another option is to suggest one of the magical players take leadership - and give them a cohort that is single classed that happens to have the ability - along with some of the other spells that will help keep the dungeon from being a slog. Given your current campaign status if you decided to go that route (which would keep your own prep down quite a bit) you could play up the information they gather from the library and make sure they know beyond all doubt that the runeforge is sealed from time, and very very static - meaning they aren't going to be in a rush to finish. I'd then make sure each wing had one or more (more is preferable) items that require research and or help/investigation to decipher giving them reasons to head back after each wing. Perhaps either before their first foray into a wing or just after they can also catch a 'raid' from one wing to another and see a bunch of mooks get slaughtered just trying to breach another wing - letting them know that the situation is almost self containing and the enemies can be picked apart without them feeling 'stuck'.