Illusions and Proof

[dragonhunterq]

Scroll down to Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Would the caster of the spell telling you it is an illusion count as proof that the spell isn't real, or would it just grant the +4 from someone else disbelieving it and telling you it isn't real?

[Tacticslion]

Depends on GM interpretation. But...
... if you trust the caster, probably "proof".
... if you have a phobia, probably "bonus".
... if you distrust the caster, probably a Sense Motive check.

Hope that helps!

[CampinCarl9127]

That depends. Do you consider spoken testimony proof? If somebody says "Dave killed Bob", does that mean that Dave killed Bob? Can't really say, but it does give you good reason to investigate and think it's a possibility. Hence a +4 bonus.

Or, if you trust the caster enough, you can just take them by their word and act as if the effect is an illusion. I've done that before. I was playing a fighter and the wizard told me a wall was fake. I didn't even roll the dice, I just walked through the wall. The GM asked me if I wanted to roll to see if the wizard was telling the truth I just said "If he's decided that, while in a deadly dungeon, it's a good time to pull a prank on me, kudos. I'm going to walk right into that wall."

Also, it seems pretty clear that since we have very specific rules for how telling somebody an illusion is an illusion works, it seems like it would be extremely poor rule writing to say "Oh but it also counts as proof, so that entire line in the rules is meaningless".

[Tacticslion]

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Also, it seems pretty clear that since we have very specific rules for how telling somebody an illusion is an illusion works, it seems like it would be extremely poor rule writing to say "Oh but it also counts as proof, so that entire line in the rules is meaningless".

It seems to me that this is a very different case.

"I think it's an illusion." if you're not the caster could come from a number of sources and reasons.

"Hey, I'm casting this illusion spell - there you go, I just cast this illusion spell." seems like something very different.

But that's why I noted that it depends on how much you trust the caster in question. If you're not sure, than it would only give you a bonus.

[CampinCarl9127]

That sounds like a very reasonable houserule.

Or, as I said, you can just take them at their word. No reason to actually have your mind overcome the illusion magic in order to defeat it, you can just put faith in your comrade and walk strait through that wall. Or into it, if they're being a dick.

[Tacticslion]

Fair enough!

[MichaelCullen]

Apparently most of these Illusion questions are covered in Ultimate Intrigue.

[CampinCarl9127]

I want to do that now.

"Hey, Boris. That wall is an illusion."

"Really? How can you tell? Seems pretty real to me."

"Come on Boris, I'm a wizard, I do all the magic things. Trust me, I don't tell you how to cut orcs in half, so you don't tell me how to handle magical problems."

"Fair enough." *Walks right into wall*

[Murdock Mudeater]

dragonhunterq wrote:

Would the caster of the spell telling you it is an illusion count as proof that the spell isn't real, or would it just grant the +4 from someone else disbelieving it and telling you it isn't real?

No.

I think the caster stating that something "isn't real" is enough of a reason to allow you to study it and attempt a save.

Otherwise, you'd only get a save if you study it specifically (for an in-character reason), or interact with it.

As for that +4 bonus, I believe the caster doesn't qualify as a "viewer" though I'm unclear. Either way, you'd still only get the +4 if you spend the time to study the illusion or interact with it.

Proof would be along the lines of, "I'm the caster so I know this is an illusion."

Mind you, you'd don't have to interact or study the illusion at all. The caster could whisper, "I'll summon an illusion of a red fighter to distract the enemies while you go for the kill." Then if you saw the red fighter, you'd know it was a decoy. You wouldn't need a save unless you attempted to study or interact with it, but you'd remain aware that it was probably the decoy created by the caster. So you'd focus not on the illusion, but on the opponent and wait for them to have an opening. In this manner, there is no need to study or interact with the illusion, you just study the opponent.

[dragonhunterq]

Quote:

If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

See, I think there is a world of difference between Bob saving against the bad guys illusion and telling you that it isn't real and the actual caster of the spell telling you he is casting an illusion.

Bob could be mistaken, the caster can't be mistaken.

It's not a case of "Dave Killed Bob", it's more "I killed Bob". A confession, not hearsay.

[Pizza Lord]

"I killed Bob."
"That was an illusion spell just now that made it sound like I just said 'I killed Bob.' So don't believe that, but I did, in fact, kill Bob...kind of...with an illusionary bridge over a pit. I told him it was an illusion, but he disbelieved me instead of the bridge."

If you're told it's an illusion, you get a bonus to disbelieve it. There's always a chance the person is lying. You can always take an action that proves the illusion is not real, as long as your character acts believably. Run through a wall, grab the cobra, etc. Once you've demonstrated that something can't be real, then you can automatically disbelieve it. This still isn't necessarily foolproof, because 'magic'. Maybe that fire you can't disbelieve didn't burn you because it's an illusion... or maybe it just doesn't burn followers of Pelor, or Lawful Good creatures (certain illusions can have thermal elements, so you could technically be feeling heat, though it won't hurt you.) Generally passing through an apparently solid object is sufficient however.

"Don't worry too much about the Bob thing. In the end... he automatically disbelieved the bridge too on the way down.