Study Target remaining a weak move action is really annoying.
I would consider using Skirmisher Ranger for the awesome Skirmisher Hunter's Tricks like Skill Sage, and then crossing it with Wild Stalker to replace weak Favored Enemy with good old-fashioned Rage. Some Extra Rage and a Furious weapon goes a long way on the combat side.
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Study Target remaining a weak move action is really annoying.
Yes, but if you can get a sneak attack off it's an immediate action which goes a long way to mitigate the action economy issues.
The main issue I see is if you only take four levels of Weapon Master Fighter you can only take one AWT, as you can only take the feat with fighter bonus feats, or once for every five fighter levels.
no, because you don't get weapon training, so you don't qualify for AWT outside of the bonus fighter feats.
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So the feat requirements are Fighter 5th level, and the weapon training class feature.
The first special allows it to be taken more than once, but not more than once per five fighter levels.
The second special allows weapon master fighters to take it at fourth level with bonus feats, and bonus feats don't count for the once per five fighter levels.
So a Weapon Master can take the feat a 4th level as a bonus feat, but to take it as a normal feat you still need to have five fighter levels. The brawler would count as fighter for the purpose of taking the feat, but you would then need a total of 10 fighter levels to take it with a normal feat a second time.
Yes, but if you can get a sneak attack off it's an immediate action which goes a long way to mitigate the action economy issues.Study Target remaining a weak move action is really annoying.
I don't really see the ability to swift-action a weaker bonus only after a successful sneak attack as hugely appealing myself. It's OK, and eventually you hit Slayer 7 anyhow; it's just something that I'd look to trade-in if that was an option. Getting Rage, Rage Powers and Hunter's Tricks seems like a pretty good trade, depending on what kind of build you're going for.
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If I wanted to get a bazillion ranks in skills (as a martial) without investing too much into INT or hampering my combat ability, would Fighter (Weapon Master) 4/Slayer (Maybe Stygian Slayer?)-- with Advanced Weapon Training, both into skills, for a total of 10 skill points/level after level 4. Even with an INT penalty, that's at least 8 skill points/level. Is this significantly weaker than going straight Fighter or straight Slayer?
You need to take 5 levels of Weapon Master to get two Advanced Weapon Training options.
And it does delay Studied Target as a Swift Action quite a long time. Of course, Weapon Training plus Gloves of Dueling make up for that a bit.
Still, seems workable enough.
The ranger combo just feels like it doesn't come online until 9th level or 10th level, assuming 5 non-Ranger levels. You trade your favored enemy, a good combat and social ability, for a somewhat generic perception boost. Low-light vision is nice, but I honestly haven't seen it used all that much. You lose a good combat feat for a questionable anti-flatfooted feature. You only get your trinity of rage, rage powers, and skirmisher tricks, at 10th level.I don't really see the ability to swift-action a weaker bonus only after a successful sneak attack as hugely appealing myself. It's OK, and eventually you hit Slayer 7 anyhow; it's just something that I'd look to trade-in if that was an option. Getting Rage, Rage Powers and Hunter's Tricks seems like a pretty good trade, depending on what kind of build you're going for.Yes, but if you can get a sneak attack off it's an immediate action which goes a long way to mitigate the action economy issues.Study Target remaining a weak move action is really annoying.
Yes, I was going off your original 4WM/X post and assuming 4/5 Ranger first. If you're talking about going Weapon Master 4/5 first, then for a Slayer Study will be a +1 bonus until level 10/11 (or 11/12 with 1 Brawler) - and won't be an easy swift-action until well past that.
No matter how you slice a major multiclass, stuff is going to be coming along very late on at least one side of the equation.
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If I wanted to get a bazillion ranks in skills (as a martial) without investing too much into INT or hampering my combat ability, would Fighter (Weapon Master) 4/Slayer (Maybe Stygian Slayer?)-- with Advanced Weapon Training, both into skills, for a total of 10 skill points/level after level 4. Even with an INT penalty, that's at least 8 skill points/level. Is this significantly weaker than going straight Fighter or straight Slayer?You need to take 5 levels of Weapon Master to get two Advanced Weapon Training options.
And it does delay Studied Target as a Swift Action quite a long time. Of course, Weapon Training plus Gloves of Dueling make up for that a bit.
Still, seems workable enough.
You need 5 levels of fighter to get two advanced Weapon Training options. However, Brawler counts as fighter for feat prerequisites, so Weapon Master 4/Brawler 1 works for meeting those five levels of fighter.
Yes, that works.Does this work?
Fighter 1: Feat: ?, Bonus Feat: ?
Brawler 1: +1d6 Sneak Attack
Fighter 2: Feat: ?, Bonus Feat: ?
Fighter 3: Weapon Training 1
Fighter 4: Feat: Advanced Weapon Training, Bonus Feat: Advanced Weapon Training
Slayer 1: Studied Target
No, it doesn't.
You can't take AWT as a general feat without 5 fighter levels.
You can use your Bonus fighter feat to take it, yes.
Without one more level in Fighter, you're limited to taking it once.
==Aelryinth
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Yes, that works.Does this work?
Fighter 1: Feat: ?, Bonus Feat: ?
Brawler 1: +1d6 Sneak Attack
Fighter 2: Feat: ?, Bonus Feat: ?
Fighter 3: Weapon Training 1
Fighter 4: Feat: Advanced Weapon Training, Bonus Feat: Advanced Weapon Training
Slayer 1: Studied TargetNo, it doesn't.
You can't take AWT as a general feat without 5 fighter levels.
You can use your Bonus fighter feat to take it, yes.
Without one more level in Fighter, you're limited to taking it once.
==Aelryinth
See above. Brawler counts as fighter for feats.
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You need 5 levels of fighter to get two advanced Weapon Training options. However, Brawler counts as fighter for feat prerequisites, so Weapon Master 4/Brawler 1 works for meeting those five levels of fighter.
Brawler works. It almost doesn't matter though, the price of the fifth level is delaying all the Slayer stuff another level.
Brawler's better, but that doesn't change the main point.
Brawler levels don't stack with fighter levels cause nothing says they stack, and things don't stack unless specifically says they do. So you'd be a fighter 1 and a fighter 4.
Also Weapon master doesn't have a weapon training that qualifies for AWT, so they can't take the feat at lv5 and every 5. But they had the exception to take it as bonus feats.
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Brawler levels don't stack with fighter levels cause nothing says they stack, and things don't stack unless specifically says they do. So you'd be a fighter 1 and a fighter 4.
Also Weapon master doesn't have a weapon training that qualifies for AWT, so they can't take the feat at lv5 and every 5. But they had the exception to take it as bonus feats.
Brawler specifically does count as fighter.
At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist or a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, such as Stunning Fist.
And per this FAQ, a Weapon Master's weapon training does count as weapon training.
The idea is that Slayer Studied Target would basically be a faster-scaling Weapon Training to get a bonus of +4, which would stack with the actual Weapon Training and perhaps gloves for a total of +7, which is higher than what the actual Fighter gets. Of course, things would probably end before then. The other goal is to get an absurd amount of skill points without relying upon a decent intelligence.
Would Ilsurian Archer or Guide be a good ranger archetype to mix in? Ilsurian Archer retains Favored Enemy, which is nice to have, also turns it into a pseudo-weapon training at 4th level (9th in this build) which is handy later on. Guide has a favored enemy-sized minismite. I'm worried that the bonus feats from Ilsurian Archer will go to waste, since the Fighter gets so many feats at low levels and Weapon Master practically requires you to heavily specialize in one weapon. Maybe it would work as a switch-hitter? Guide seems like it would benefit from more Ranger leveling, since both its power and uses per day are based on ranger level.
Guide is arguably more useful than Studied Target until Studied Target becomes a swift action, and then it's just a different kind of bonus. The reason I mentioned Wild Stalker is that once you actually get Rage somewhere between 4 and 9, it's the most useful all-around bonus until very high level, and it's expandable with Extra Rage and exploitable with a Furious weapon. By comparison, Guide Ranger has an easy-to-use, decent buff but with really poor uses/day, and Slayer has a buff that's weak and very conditional.
Brawler levels don't stack with fighter levels cause nothing says they stack, and things don't stack unless specifically says they do. So you'd be a fighter 1 and a fighter 4.
Levels of Fighter stack with levels of Fighter when calculating how many levels of Fighter you have.
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but levels of cleric don't stack with levels of cleric when calculating how many levels of cleric you have.
And nothing says that levels of fighter stack, so the default would be they don't.
If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability.
At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.
This doesn't mention the standard WT of the fighter. And it mentions bonuses, just like this example.
[/quote=FAQ]This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
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If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability.At 3rd level, a weapon master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with his chosen weapon. The bonus improves by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd.This doesn't mention the standard WT of the fighter. And it mentions bonuses, just like this example.
[/quote=FAQ]This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
Even were this true, the rules on Advanced Weapon Training the Feat explicitly note that you can take it as a Weapon Master, and the version that grants Skills doesn't reference your Weapon Training bonus...so this is utterly irrelevant.
Ah! Right. He could use a general feat at 5+ once, then, yes.
==Aelryinth
And nothing says that levels of fighter stack, so the default would be they don't.
Levels in a class isn't an ability. And even if it was an ability, it would be an ability that "adds in some way based on the character's total class levels".
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Remember the second paragraph of a fighters bonus feat text:
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
when combined with the specific text from the advanced weapon mastery feat:
A weapon master can select this feat as a bonus feat; if he does so, it doesn't count for the purpose of the requirement that it can be taken at most once per 5 fighter levels.
so at level 4: take advance weapon mastery as the fighter level 4 bonus feat, then retrain your level 1 or 2 fighter feat for advanced weapon training a second time. With one more level of fighter (or class that specifically counts as fighter for the purpose of feats) you could take it a third time.
Retraining is allowed by cash under the rules, too. So he could pick up both his level 1 and 2 feats that way, once by class and once by simply using cash and time.
==Aelryinth
I've always disliked Favored Enemy, so when I see weak Favored Enemy I kind of gag a little. Anyhow, when it comes to choosing something else to pair with Weapon Master, I wouldn't myself be that worried about whether or not there was some kind of extra +1 operating for a few middle levels. In the grand scheme of things it's only relevant for a few levels, and it's not really that relevant for those. That's not an argument for Wild Stalker per se, just for looking towards a greater multiclass payoff than a multiclass-crippled scaling feature.
The odd action economy might be an issue depending on how your group/GM tends to run things, but a Dawnflower Dervish Bard would be an interesting, skill-rich choice: +2s to start, and then as the levels run up there's Heroism at 8, +4s by 9, and even Discordant Voice. There's nothing that says a Dawnflower Dervish couldn't be a greatsword warrior or a STR/DEX dual-scimitar-machine or whatever else - even ditching spellcasting wouldn't lose the real draw. Crossing +4ab/+4dam Inspire Courage with +3ab/+3dam Weapon Training, +2ab Heroism and +2dam Weapon Specialization could make a truly monstrous dual-wield character by 9.
Except that Bard would lose full BAB, which means only 3/4 scaling on Advanced Weapon Training skills. With that scaling, it would be better to go Bard from 1st level to pick up more Versatile Performances to max out more skills. I'm hoping to see if I could get lots of skills on full BAB martial chassis.
Ilsurian Archer gets Favored Enemy at 1st, but at 4th, it also becomes a generic boost to ranged attacks (at half power).
Eh, it was just a thought; you'd be a couple points short of maxed out on a couple of skills, but overall you'd gain so many extra skill points from Bard and versatile that those slightly lower skills would really just be a bonus on the side. Compared to a full Bard, 4 levels of Weapon Master is actually quite powerful both for combat purposes and for skills - assuming you can live with having four of your many, many skills not-quite-maxed-out.
If you're focused on only taking full-BAB levels and you're happy going with a built totally focused on archery, then Ilsurian works well. I'm not sure I'd bother with any kind of switch-hitter when the entire Weapon Master bonus and pretty much the entire second class bonus only applies with a bow.
I guess Unchained Monk would be the other unique full-BAB option with decent skills, and it definitely has some interesting grabs by 5. Probably best with Ascetic Style to two-hand a weapon.
I have never been a fan of wild stalker archtype. I figure if you want rage, just be a barbarian - you get better stuff than the ranger archtype.
That's true in a lot of ways, particularly with Rage Powers. The Wild Stalker does get either spellcasting or Skirmisher - things like entangling any enemy with a free action on an attack are pretty great. Wild Stalker is probably at it's best in some kind of multiclass, like with an Unchained Monk or something.
I'm not sure Hooded Champion has all that much appeal; there are some deeds that could be handy here or there, but Hooded Champion seems to me to be more like a level or two you grab on a switch-hitter Swashbuckler to keep Panache flowing.