Synthesist and Leadership

[Kai_G]

If a synthesist archetype summoner picks up the Leadership feat, should his Leadership score for cohorts suffer the "Has a familiar, special mount, or animal companion" penalty of -2?

[dragonhunterq]

Yes, it falls under the same broad category of class feature critter that competes for attention.
Minions are a touchy bunch

[alexd1976]

An Eidolon is not a familiar.
An Eidolon is not a special mount.
An Eidolon is not an animal companion.

dragonhunterq is assuming that it is essentially in the same category as these, which I agree with, but as written, NO an Eidolon does NOT affect Leadership.

Unless someone has knowledge of errata stating otherwise?

[Snorter]

The text of the Leadership feat was published 9 years prior to the publication of the Summoner class, so the original author would have had no reason to predict the need for text calling out 'eidolons'.

As such, it falls firmly into that category of rules where, while there has been no change to the letter of the rule, the intent is very clear.

Like the introduction of a new light, finessable weapon, that should be assumed to be on the list of 'monk weapons' (and could be, with the addition of a keyword), it could also be assumed to be available to rogues and bards, or included in the Fighter's light blades weapon training group, without needing an errata.

However, given the pedantry displayed so often on the boards, an errata would be welcome, in both the feat, and the eidolon description, so no-one can point to only the half of the relevant text, which backs their 'side'.

And I say that as one who likes summoners.
Indeed, given the unnnerving and bewildering variety of their forms, the penalty could be justified as higher than -2.
It would be a strange setting, where a man who has a faithful hound, or a sturdy horse, is considered less trustworthy than a person with a fire-breathing, tentacled, levitating crocodile-crab.

[Claxon]

I agree with Snorter.

While technically an Eidolon doesn't fall into the category, I believe the intent is clear enough to say that it should count and reduce your effective leadership score.

However, you are a charisma based character so it was likely to matter very little as your cohorts max level is capped at your level -2. As long as your charisma modifier is greater than the penalties, you're pretty much always going to be at that cap.

[Azten]

But for a Synthesist, that does not summon an actual creature, I could also see reasoning for it being a "special power" and give a bonus. It could go both ways.

[Kai_G]

Part of his argument against it was this, "We are never two beings while it is on this plane. It literally never exists as a creature while on this plane, which is the plane where we would have the bond described. I cannot give it orders, there is no distance, it is not a living creature."

The synthesist doesn't modify the Summoner/Eidolon Link ability though,

"Link (Ex)
A summoner and his eidolon share a mental link allows for communication across any distance (as long as they are on the same plane). This communication is a free action, allowing the summoner to give orders to his eidolon at any time."

This makes me think that even as a synthesist, the Eidolon is still a living, sentient creature with whom you share a closer bond than with your cohort and THAT would be the source of the penalty.

[MeanMutton]

I think alexd1976 is right about the RAW. When they wrote the summoner they should have clarified the feat but they didn't.

[Snorter]

Azten wrote:

But for a Synthesist, that does not summon an actual creature, I could also see reasoning for it being a "special power" and give a bonus. It could go both ways.

Being a 'special power' doesn't necessarily help, though.

Going back to my example, would you rather trust a man who has a faithful hound, or a sturdy horse, a person with a fire-breathing, tentacled, levitating crocodile-crab, or a person who frequently, suddenly, and alarmingly, turns into a fire-breathing, tentacled, levitating crocodile-crab?

"I love working my new job, for Squidney Blayze-Chomp, he's a great boss!
I used to have to muck out for that Wilbur, and his awful horse, 'Mister' Ed. <rolls eyes>
Gawd, it made me sick, the way they fawned over each other. He used to talk to it, like it could understand him. Weirdo.
I wouldn't work for him again. What a ****."

[alexd1976]

So are people saying that summoned creatures affect your leadership score?

A level 7 caster can have a magical Mount spell active for more than half the day, does this lower his Leadership score by 2 points?

Cause it kinda sounds like people are saying it does...

Summoners were written after Leadership was written, clarifications could have been spelled out.

They weren't, because Summoners Eidolons don't affect Leadership.

If you want to make a houserule that contradicts published rules, that is your right (if you are GM), but in this thread, discussing rules...

Eidolons don't affect Leadership.

[David knott 242]

Of course, in practice any sort of summoner is likely to have a high charisma, so the limiting factor on his cohort's level is most likely to be his own level and not his Leadership score.

But this issue would be more pressing for a Spiritualist with a Phantom, who is a wisdom based caster.