| miscdebris |
I'm trying to sort out what maneuvers I can do at reach with a whip or other reach weapon, and what bonuses I can get.
This will be a Maneuver Master Monk Lore Warden Fighter with Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers.
BAB, Size, Dex, and Lore Warden apply to all them, I believe.
If I can use the weapon fully, I'll get the enhancement bonus of the weapon and weapon training.
Reach mentioned below is only weapon reach. Natural reach always works (yes?)
- Bull Rush - I'm not sure about this one. I don't think the weapon would apply, though the reach part still might.
- Dirty Trick - Some can use the weapon, some can't, on a case by case basis (cracking the whip, I can see causing blindness, for example). For those that the weapon does not apply, I'm not sure that it can be done at reach.
- Disarm - Yes, as per the blog post. Weapon Bonuses apply. I know I can do this one at reach. If it has the disarm property, I get +2.
- Drag - If the weapon has the trip property, I can use all the bonuses of the weapon. If it doesn't, I'm not sure that it can be done at reach. Probably though.
- Grapple - Weapon bonuses: no, Reach: no. Greater Whip Mastery creates a possible exception. I believe I can use weapon bonuses with the whip in a grapple. The only other reach weapon with grapple (mancatcher) already spells it out.
- Overrun - Highly unlikely that this can be done at reach and use any weapon bonuses. It just would not make sense.
- Reposition - If the weapon has the trip property, I can use all the bonuses of the weapon. If it doesn't, I'm not sure that it can be done at reach. Probably though.
- Steal - Maybe I can use the bonuses and reach with a whip and Improved Whip Mastery. Highly unlikely otherwise.
- Sunder - Yes, as per the blog post. Weapon Bonuses apply. I know I can do this one at reach.
- Trip - Yes, as per the blog post. Weapon Bonuses apply. I know I can do this one at reach.
I did search 5 pages of posts on the forums. If I missed it, can someone link me?
Thanks
kinevon
|
Bull Rush: Most weapons are not applicable. I think there may be a weapon or two that can be used for bull rush, but those are specific weapons, or feat chains.
Dirty Trick: If the dirty trick is defined as not using the weapon, only your natural reach would apply. This will be on a case-by-case basis, per a dialogue on what you are trying to do, and how you are trying to do it, with your GM.
Disarm: Yes, for sure.
Drag: Weapon's reach, rather than yours, only applies if the weapon has the Trip property.
Grapple: Again, only specific instances allow the use of a weapon for grapple. Whip with the appropriate feats or trait, mancatcher, net.
Overrun: Nope, not a weapon maneuver.
Reposition: Like Drag, only if your weapon has the Trip property.
Steal: Usually not. There might be a feat or weapon that allows it, but I don't recall them.
Sunder: Yes, Sunder is usually done with a weapon. Whip is probably not the best weapon to Sunder with.
Trip: Yes, any weapon can be used to Trip, Trip property allows you to drop the weapon instead of getting tripped on a badly failed trip attempt, and to use the weapon for the Drag and Reposition maneuvers. Unlike Disarm, the Trip property does not provide a bonus to Trip maneuvers.
BAB, size, Dex, and Lore Warden bonuses apply to all of them, due to Agile Maneuvers.
You won't get Dex twice on Finesseable weapons, due to the FAQ on adding different ability modifiers, but it allows you to use your Dex instead of Str mod on such weapons for normal attacks.
Enhancement bonus, weapon training, weapon focus, etc. all apply to maneuvers done with the weapon. Same for the weapon's reach instead of yours.
Murdock Mudeater
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Reach is melee range.
Bull rush doesn't really apply. There are some feats that could make it apply, but nothing common.
Dirty Trick is always a grey area, as it's very clear in the description of that one that it's up to the GM on what can be done.
Disarm, yes. And at reach, yes. It is notable that if you fail to disarm by 10 or more, you actually drop the weapon you are using to attempt the disarming.
Drag, yes, correct.
Grapple. Yes, the reach does apply. It's in the weapon rules for "grapple weapons" You can grapple at reach, but only if the weapon has the grapple rule.
Overrun. Like bull rush, not really a weapon related ability.
Reposition. Correct again.
Steal. No feat I know of let's you perform this one with a weapon. Pretty sure there's a magic item enhancement here.
Sunder. Probably not with the whip, but other reach weapons can be awesome here. It's not that you couldn't attempt it with the whip, but that the whip really does very low damage and really isn't a very good option for the whip.
Trip. Correct. Like Disarm, you can lose your whip if you fail by a lot.
Aid Another (non-combat manuever). The Whip, and other reach weapons can aid another with their reach. This is one of the more potent applications for the whip.
Feint (non-combat manuever). Especially if combined with the "Feint Partner" teamwork feat, this can be pretty nasty with reach weapons. Basically, denies dex to AC for your next attack (teamwork feat extends it to allies), which means you can sneak attack them. Requires the bluff skill, so high CHA makes this one more practical.
| miscdebris |
Thanks for getting back to me. This helps quite a bit.
Of course, this is somewhat complicated by the Leveraging enhancement from Weapon Master's Handbook.
Leveraging should allow Bull Rush attempts with a whip.
Edit: It also combines very nicely with Dueling (PSFG) to make maneuvers scale very nicely.
| Kazaan |
Leveraging wouldn't grant a weapon the ability to bull rush; what it would do is that, if you had some other means to apply the weapon during a bull rush, it gives you a bonus. For instance, if you use the Shield Slam feat and have a Leveraging Shield, it would grant a bonus because you are exceptionally using the shield to perform the Bull Rush. Or you could use the Bull Rush Strike feat to get a Bull Rush attempt on a critical hit; that would be considered using your weapon to perform the maneuver.
| Gwen Smith |
The grapple weapon ability only lets you get a free grapple attempt on a critical hit: it says nothing about whether you can perform a grapple maneuver normally with the weapon.
I'd say that any weapon with the grapple ability would also allow you to use the weapon to perform a grapple check as your normal standard action, but your GM may not agree. (Actually, I would probably let you grapple someone with any weapon that could reasonably wrap around a person, and of course, with a Dan Bong.)
| dragonhunterq |
Orc Skull Ram can bull rush, although it's not terribly common and doesn't say anything about weapon bonuses.
The general principle is if you are using the weapon you get the weapon bonuses. A weapon or ability that allows you to use a combat maneouver with a weapon that normally can't perform that maneouver it would need to tell you that you don't get the bonuses if they don't want them to apply.
| miscdebris |
My Self wrote:Orc Skull Ram can bull rush, although it's not terribly common and doesn't say anything about weapon bonuses.The general principle is if you are using the weapon you get the weapon bonuses. A weapon or ability that allows you to use a combat maneouver with a weapon that normally can't perform that maneouver it would need to tell you that you don't get the bonuses if they don't want them to apply.
So does that apply to a +1 Leveraging Whip? Can I Bull Rush with it at reach? How about adjacent? Do I get the +2 bonus to Bull Rush from Leveraging?
| miscdebris |
Restriction This ability can be placed only on melee weapons.
The wielder of a leveraging weapon gains a bonus equal to the weapon's enhancement bonus to her Combat Maneuver Defense against bull rush, drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers. The leveraging weapon's enhancement bonus is doubled when applied to combat maneuver checks to attempt bull rush, drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers.
I don't see the "if" in here.
edit: Not trying to be a pain, I'm just trying to see where this is coming from.
| Kazaan |
"The leveraging weapon's enhancement bonus is doubled when applied to combat maneuver checks to attempt bull rush, drag, reposition, and trip combat maneuvers."
The bonus is doubled "when applied"; it doesn't say "you may apply the weapon's enhancement bonus to attempts to bull rush. The default rules are that you do not perform Bull Rush with a weapon. Some exceptions exist that allow you to do something you couldn't normally do. Bonuses that apply during those exceptions do not logically extend to granting exceptions. For instance, if a weapon enhancement granted "+1 damage bonus on Attacks of Opportunity" and you placed it on your Longbow, that doesn't grant the ability to make AoOs with the Longbow; it only provides the bonus if some other rules element (ie. Snap Shot) allows for it.
Lets say, for example, you had a +3 Leveraging Fauchard. Now, any weapon (not just Trip weapons) can be used to perform a Trip maneuver. The Fauchard is a Trip weapon, so you may drop it in lieu of falling prone if you badly fail your Trip. Also, you may use the weapon to perform Drag and Reposition maneuvers (you couldn't do this with a non-Trip weapon). However, none of this grants you the ability to make a Bull Rush with a Fauchard. So, while you double the enhancement bonus from +3 to +6 when making a Trip, Drag, or Reposition, you get no enhancement bonus at all when making a Bull Rush because you're not using the weapon to do so. Now, lets suppose you pick up the Bull Rush Strike feat which grants you a free Bull Rush attempt on a critical hit. In this case, the feat says you are making the Bull Rush as part of the attack with the weapon; therefore, logically, the weapon is a part of the Bull Rush maneuver. So in this case, you'd apply the weapon's enhancement bonus and, due to the Leveraging enhancement, the bonus doubles from +3 to +6.
Murdock Mudeater
|
Orc Skull Ram can bull rush, although it's not terribly common and doesn't say anything about weapon bonuses.
Doesn't actually say it can bull rush. What it says is that you can make a free bull rush after getting a critical hit with the weapon.
The Dwarven Boulder Helmet, on the other hand, does actually mention it can be used while bull rushing:
This heavy, reinforced helmet can be used to make melee attacks. The wearer may also use the helmet when attempting bull rush maneuvers, granting a +2 circumstance bonus on the check, but after completing the maneuver (whether successful or not), the wearer is staggered until the end of his next turn. In addition, the helmet grants a +2 circumstance bonus to the wearer's AC against critical hit confirmation rolls. A dwarven boulder helmet adds 20% to the wearer's arcane spell failure chance. It occupies the head slot and is made of metal, not stone, meaning that it can be crafted from unusual materials as a metal weapon. A dwarven boulder helmet can be enchanted as a weapon (not as armor, despite providing some protection).
I love the Dwarven Boulder Helmet. Worst weapon for arcane casters, but otherwise awesome weapon.
PS: Not actually disagreeing here, just pointing out that some weapons actually specify that they are used for bull rush maneuvers.
| SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
It's not technically bullrushing, but the Pushing Assault feat allows you to trade the bonus damage from Power Attack to move your opponent back 5 feet if you hit it (10 feet back on a crit). It works really well when combined with a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes & Stand Still, and Lunge. You can Lunge 5 feet, push them back feet, and when they move, you use your AoO to make them stand still, 10 feet away from you.
Add enlarge for more reach shenanigans.