Drawing a hidden weapon with Sleight of Hand skill unlock.

[Exhibit A]

The unchained skill unlock for Sleight of Hand at 15 ranks says that you can "attempt a Sleight of Hand check (including drawing a hidden weapon) as a swift action at a –20 penalty."

The only problem is, drawing a hidden weapon doesn't require any check. Does this unlock allow you to draw a hidden weapon as a swift action with no penalty?

[Ravingdork]

Maybe it's supposed to mean "if you can make the check you can draw it as a swift action?"

[Fried Goblin Surprise]

The simple act of drawing a hidden weapon doesn't require a check. It is drawing the hidden weapon "unnoticed" that requires the sleight of hand check.

Normal Sleight of Hand Skill:

Draw hidden weapon without trying to hide it as a standard or move action = no check
Draw hidden weapon covertly as standard action = normal check
Draw hidden weapon covertly as a move action = normal check -20

Skill Unlocks change this to:

10 Ranks: Draw hidden weapon covertly as a move action = normal check -10
15 Ranks: Draw hidden weapon covertly as a swift action = normal check -20
15 Ranks: Draw hidden weapon without trying to hide it as a standard, move, or swift action = no check
20 Ranks: Draw hidden weapon covertly as a move action = normal check

Or at least that is how I read it.

I think a Developer (Mark?) may have addressed this in a post before the book came out last year but I couldn't find the post.

[Ravingdork]

Fried Goblin Surprise wrote:

The simple act of drawing a hidden weapon doesn't require a check. It is drawing the hidden weapon "unnoticed" that requires the sleight of hand check.

Normal Sleight of Hand Skill:

Draw hidden weapon without trying to hide it as a standard or move action = no check
Draw hidden weapon covertly as standard action = normal check
Draw hidden weapon covertly as a move action = normal check -20

Skill Unlocks change this to:

10 Ranks: Draw hidden weapon covertly as a move action = normal check -10
15 Ranks: Draw hidden weapon covertly as a swift action = normal check -20
15 Ranks: Draw hidden weapon without trying to hide it as a standard, move, or swift action = no check
20 Ranks: Draw hidden weapon covertly as a move action = normal check

Or at least that is how I read it.

I think a Developer (Mark?) may have addressed this in a post before the book came out last year but I couldn't find the post.

*Reads sleight of hand skill description again*

I'm not seeing where it says you can draw a weapon unnoticed.

[Exhibit A]

Ravingdork wrote:

Maybe it's supposed to mean "if you can make the check you can draw it as a swift action?"

What is the check though? The only thing listed is a penalty, there's no base DC because drawing a hidden weapon doesn't require a check normally.

I think Fried Goblin Surprise has it right, as far as the unlock allowing you to draw it as a swift action with no check or penalty, but I'm not sure where the rules are for drawing a weapon covertly.

[BretI]

Sleight of hand is an opposed check. To draw the weapon unnoticed would not have a fixed DC, but rather be the other person's Perception check.

[Kazaan]

The check is to be able to draw the weapon at all. You spend a swift action to make the check and, if you succeed, you've successfully drawn the hidden weapon. If you fail, you've wasted your swift action. The problem is that it doesn't specify what the DC is to draw a hidden weapon. Draw a hidden weapon is listed as a function of SoH, but it simply says it's a standard action:

PRD wrote:

Your training allows you to pick pockets, draw hidden weapons, and take a variety of actions without being noticed.

Check: A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went.

When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer's Perception check. The observer's success doesn't prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone observing you or of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Perception check, since it's generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check.

Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.

You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your "act" encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.

The way it's written, as well as several other mentions in the rules, imply that you have to "succeed" at slight of hand to draw your hidden weapon, presumably because it isn't in an easy-to-reach place, and that if you fail the check, you've failed to draw your hidden weapon. But I've searched every which way I know and I haven't found a single mention of a DC for such a check, unless it's treated as lifting an item from a person (that person being yourself), in which case the DC would be 20. And, as with all uses of SoH, an observer would attempt a perception check to detect it, but this doesn't directly oppose the check to failure if they notice.

[thaX]

Would Quick Draw effect this? (make it a move action or simular?)