| VeryImportantMonkey |
Hey all, very new to Pathfinder so need some help. We play with core rules only.
I want to play a Halfling tank (defensive) fighter. My GM insists that it is a terrible idea and I am shooting myself on my (hairy) foot. I don't care to be very powerful, but I don't want to be useless either. Would something like this work?
Str 13, Con 17, Dex 18, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15 (I got very lucky rolling stats I think)
I intend to use a Guisarme for the reach+trip combination (also because a polearm Halfling seems to me really badass). We start at lvl 2 but I am trying to work out feats for the first few levels and I have pencilled down the following:
Agile Maneuvres, Combat Experise, Improved Trip (for start), then Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Power attack, and eventually Greater Trip, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still. My first stat point will go to Strength.
So the idea is to be some sort of disabler, control large areas with the polearm, trip from afar and get attacks of opportunity, make enemies unable to get past me and reach my companions. Obviously this would be much more effective in closed areas rather than out in the open where people can just circle around me.
So as I said, I am a total newb when it comes to Pathfinder and I wonder, would this work in any way? I understand that being a Halfling with a low Str would handicap me when it comes to combat maneuvres, movement, weapon size etc etc. Would my damage be pathetic/useless? I have no clue! Also, what would I do armor-wise, given my high dex score?
| wraithstrike |
Do not go after a maneuver fighter. You might start off ok at lower levels, but later on the monsters CMD's will take over and you will fail a lot more.
CMD also does not do hit point damage, meaning the monsters live longer, which means they have more chances to kill you and any squishier party members.
One thing about stand still is that it only works on adjacent opponents, and with a reach weapon you won't even be able to use the feat.
Your damage would not be very good
Basically, this idea will not be a good one. Since your GM advised against it I doubt he is entertaining the idea of making combats less dangerous and/or easier for you to contribute to.
| VeryImportantMonkey |
Do not go after a maneuver fighter. You might start off ok at lower levels, but later on the monsters CMD's will take over and you will fail a lot more.
Damn, how bad will it be? Are we talking like 50-50 chances or thereabouts?
CMD also does not do hit point damage, meaning the monsters live longer, which means they have more chances to kill you and any squishier party members.
I was thinking that being tripped would give more time for the rest of the party to shoot/cast on them, and also, that after I learn Greater Trip I will be getting a free attack on them anyway.
One thing about stand still is that it only works on adjacent opponents, and with a reach weapon you won't even be able to use the feat.
Then it is not going to be useful to me, you are right.
Thanks for the feedback, it's exactly the sort of info I am looking for. If I went forward with it anyway, what you advise me to do armor-wise?
| 666bender |
Hey all, very new to Pathfinder so need some help. We play with core rules only.
I want to play a Halfling tank (defensive) fighter. My GM insists that it is a terrible idea and I am shooting myself on my (hairy) foot. I don't care to be very powerful, but I don't want to be useless either. Would something like this work?
Str 13, Con 17, Dex 18, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15 (I got very lucky rolling stats I think)
I intend to use a Guisarme for the reach+trip combination (also because a polearm Halfling seems to me really badass). We start at lvl 2 but I am trying to work out feats for the first few levels and I have pencilled down the following:
Agile Maneuvres, Combat Experise, Improved Trip (for start), then Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Power attack, and eventually Greater Trip, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still. My first stat point will go to Strength.
So the idea is to be some sort of disabler, control large areas with the polearm, trip from afar and get attacks of opportunity, make enemies unable to get past me and reach my companions. Obviously this would be much more effective in closed areas rather than out in the open where people can just circle around me.
So as I said, I am a total newb when it comes to Pathfinder and I wonder, would this work in any way? I understand that being a Halfling with a low Str would handicap me when it comes to combat maneuvres, movement, weapon size etc etc. Would my damage be pathetic/useless? I have no clue! Also, what would I do armor-wise, given my high dex score?
trip is poor for a small size, as it only works on 1 size larger...
halfling can be amazing tanks, but not trip mastrers.cavalier order of the dragon can add +8 ac to all around it, while swit aid for super buffs.
Oncoming_Storm
|
There's really no such thing as a tank in Pathfinder. At least, not in the "don't attack my allies" sense. The best way to protect your allies is to position yourself between them and the bad guys, while being able to withstand whatever the bad guys throw at you. So you'll need a good amount of hit points, a nice AC and good saving throws.
The easiest way to do this is to be a Paladin. Move your rolls around a little and you'll be an amazing frontliner protecting your friends while kicking ass. And you can still be a halfling all the while.
| Chengar Qordath |
Another big factor to consider when making a trip build is the fact that you flat-out can't trip any opponent who's more than one size category larger than you. That leaves any small-sized character at a big disadvantage for a trip build: anything Large or bigger is going to be immune unless you bump up your own size.
On top of that, Trip's one of those maneuvers that already has lots of irksome exceptions. Anything with more than two legs gets +2 CMB per leg, and anything with no legs or wings is also flat-out immune.
| wraithstrike |
Damn, how bad will it be? Are we talking like 50-50 chances or thereabouts?
Something like that, maybe worse for some monsters, but this seperation is sudden and it happens around level 10. Before that it will vary by monster.
I was thinking that being tripped would give more time for the rest of the party to shoot/cast on them, and also, that after I learn Greater Trip I will be getting a free attack on them anyway.
Shooting at prone monsters makes them harder to hit, and you won't always be fighting single monsters so even if you get one down the others will be on your party members. The one you tripped will eventually get up, assuming you trip him. If you miss he either tries to kill you or goes after someone else, depending on how smart he is and your GM runs monsters. You really are better off just killing them in most situations.
One thing about stand still is that it only works on adjacent opponents, and with a reach weapon you won't even be able to use the feat.
Then it is not going to be useful to me, you are right.Thanks for the feedback, it's exactly the sort of info I am looking for. If I went forward with it anyway, what you advise me to do armor-wise?
At level 2 start with breastplate. Later on get mithral breastplate of mithral fullplate. I would suggest the full plate. Mithral is expensive so it wont be an early game addition.
DM_aka_Dudemeister
|
Halfling Reach specialist is not really a bad build, what's going to hurt you is core rulebook only.
Str 13
Dex 18
Con 17
Int 14
Wis 15
Cha 15
But if your goal is to build a high defense character, who can dodge hits and soak the damage he does take, it's not an unreasonable demand.
Here's my take:
CRB only
Lvl 1: Dodge, Mobility
Lvl 2: Spring Attack
Lvl 3: Toughness
Lvl 4: Combat Expertise [+1 STR]
Lvl 5: Iron Will
Lvl 6: Wind Stance
Lvl 7: Improved Iron Will
Lvl 8: Nimble Moves [+1 STR]
Lvl 9: Great Fortitude
Lvl 10: Acrobatic Steps
Lvl 11: Improved Initiative
Lvl 12: Lightning Stance [+1 STR]
Lvl 13: Fleet
Lvl 14: Shield Focus
Lvl 15: Improved Great Fortitude
Lvl 16: Greater Shield Focus [+1 STR]
Lvl 17: Greater Lightning Reflexes
Lvl 18: Strike Back
Lvl 19: Lightning Reflexes
Lvl 20: Whirlwind Attack (For Fun!) [+1 WIS]
Chain Shirts, and enchanted Chain Shirts are going to be your best friend +4 Armour Bonus and +4 Dex bonus to AC is a winner at level 1, you're going to also carry a heavy shield for a further +2, add in a size modifier and your level 1 AC is 21. You're going to carry a Long Sword, Longbow and Ranseur.
You want any magic item, spell or wand that increases your speed AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. A wand of Longstrider should keep you moving quickly, and your handy Druid or Ranger should cast it no problem, your Sorcerer or Rogue can UMD it if need be.
Your turns are basically going to consist of:
I run forward and hit the badguy, and then I move away (wasting its Attack of Opportunity on my obscene AC\Miss Chance combo).
But Dudemeister, this build does not keep up in the damage race.
Yes that's true, but this is an Ultimate Defense build. Someone else in the party should be dealing damage, and drawing monster's attention. You're here to absorb attacks of opportunity so your rogue can get in and sneak attack, or your Barbarian can get his charge through enemy reach. This class is a dodgy meatshield, and between his absurdly good saves, AC and concealment should rarely take damage at all, and if you do take damage you certainly have the Hit Points to endure anything.
| Jack of Dust |
As others have noted, trip based small characters don't work well because a creature can only trip another creature up to one size category larger than them ( up to Medium creatures in your case). On the defensive side, grab a reach weapon and the Combat Reflexes feat. A high AC is always good to have but don't over invest in it, AC is mostly used to stop iterative attacks due to attack bonuses scaling faster. Dudemeister's build is a good example to follow.
| BadBird |
If I were to build a Core Halfling melee, I would probably start with a high-dex, OK-strength Fighter using an appropriately sized Elven Curved Blade, who used weapon finesse for attack bonus and used a bit of strength and Power Attack for damage, focusing not on combat maneuvers but on being damn dangerous with a great weapon. You can't really "tank" (especially in Core), but being both hard to kill and dangerous means your allies are much safer. The Fighter's Armor Training feature means that you get more out of having a high dexterity when wearing armor, which is really great for a high-dexterity character who wants to be tough to hurt.
I'd be tempted to multiclass, but that's a whole other issue and something that isn't necessarily great with only Core. Still, a Core Fighter/Sorcerer Halfling could work well in the long run (you'd just have to be very careful about how it got built).
| VeryImportantMonkey |
Thanks for the awesome feedback everyone, it is VERY helpful.
<<you're going to also carry a heavy shield for a further +2,>>
<< You're going to carry a Long Sword, Longbow and Ranseur.>>
Sorry for more newbie questions, but how does this work? Say, I hold my sword and shield, where is my ranseur at that time? When I want to take my bow and fire a few shots, what do I do with my shield and the ranseur? Do I need to drop them on the ground and then spend actions to pick them up? I was thinking of just having a polearm because I was unsure how all this works, especially during combat, but even outside combat...
DM_aka_Dudemeister
|
You wear the bow strung across your back, and Ranseur slung across your back as well. 85% of the time Longsword/Shield or Two-Hand wielded Longsword are going to be your go to attacks. When you face flying opponents pull out your bow, stand still and full attack. When you face enemies with reach pull out the Ranseur. This means dropping your sword and shield (don't bother picking them up until end of combat), but dropping items is a free action, and you can draw a weapon as part of a move and since most of the time you'll be moving stabbing and moving again, that shouldn't be an issue.
| BadBird |
If you really want to play a 'protector' role on a Halfling rather than just being a tank, I would definitely consider going for a build that will mow down enemies along with having a solid defense - maybe even a 'switch-hitter' with a sword and a bow who literally stands by his allies mowing down threats at range before he physically shields them in melee.
Killing things is ultimately the most sure form of defense, and making enemies aware that you're capable of efficiently killing them if they ignore you is typically the most sure form of shielding others. In a situation where it 'doesn't work' and you're being ignored or bypassed, then it still works because you're going to drop targets.
Maybe something like: "Stern Halfling Guardian"
16\14 STR, 15/17(+) DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 12 WIS, 7/9 CHA
1Fighter. Weapon Finesse / + Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Curved Blade. (How a Halfling end up with a specially-sized elite Elven Sword sounds like an interesting backstory hook; you could also just call it a family heirloom from some famous ancestor).
2Fighter. + Power Attack
3Fighter. Point-Blank Shot / *Armor Training +1*
4Fighter. + Rapid Shot
5Fighter. Quickdraw / *Weapon Training: Heavy Blade*
6Fighter. + Manyshot
7Fighter. Weapon Focus: Elven Curved Blade / *Armor Training +2*
8Fighter. +Weapon Specialization: Elven Curved Blade
9Fighter. Iron Will / *Weapon Training: Bow*
Even though this character is focused on dexterity, Fighter Armor Training means that they could wear a mithral Full Plate armor and still get a +5 AC bonus from dexterity while moving at full speed. Quickdraw means they can switch between shooting up enemies with their bow and fighting with their blade without missing a beat, which is a huge tactical advantage and makes having a lower base movement speed (halfling) less of a problem.
Argus The Slayer
|
I am going to buck the trend here. If you are going Core Rulebook only, you are going to have a really hard time with damage on a DEX-based fighter, since the DEX-to-damage stuff (equipment like Agile enhancement or various class features or feats) aren't going to be available to you. If you GM will allow you to move your stats around, I would suggest you move that 17 from CON gto STR (becoming a 15) - and then put all of your stat bumps (levels 4, 8 and 12) into STR. You will have decent to hit (because of your size bonus) and moderate damage (especially after you bump STR to 16 - and then 18 - as you level). It also saves you two feets (Weapon Finesse and XWP: Elven Curve Blade).
Str 15, Con 15, Dex 18, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15
F1) Weapon Focus: Falchion (or a reach weapon?); Toughness
F2)Power Attack
F3) Weapon Training 1 (you can wear a breastplate with full DEX and no movement penalty)
F4) Weapon Specialization: Falchion [+1 STR = 16]
F5) Iron Will; Weapon Training (Heavy Blades: +1/+1)
F6) Combat Reflexes (take this at level 1 if you go w/ a reach weapon!)
F7 Improved Iron Will; Weapon Training 2 (you can wear Mithral Full Plate with full DEX and no move penalty)
F8) Greater Weapon Focus [+1 STR=17]
F9) Improved Critical (Weapon Training: +2/+2)
F10) Critical Focus
F11) Sickening Critical
F12) Greater Weapon Specialization [+1STR=18]
F13) Staggering Critical
F14) Critical Mastery
F15) Staggering Critical
| VeryImportantMonkey |
Thanks guys, some amazing suggestions here. The first thing I will probably take on board is to raise my strength (yes, I have the option of switching stats around, so I will prob go with Con 15 and Str 15, then keep raising Str as I level).
Now back to the reach/trip combo with a polearm (guisarme). Here's how I imagine I could be able to 'zone' enemies away from my companions:
1) I find a nice bottleneck if there is one, or otherwise stand in front of them.
2) I threaten a wide 'front' with my polearm , 5 squares wide.
3) I have combat reflexes and a Dex 18, so I can make 5 attacks of opportunity (right?)
4) Everyone who moves through my area suffers free attacks from me. Therefore, my relatively low attack bonus / damage is offset by my high number of attacks.
5) My attempts to trip have a decent bonus because of Dex 18 + Agile Maneuvres. I understand all the limitations people mentioned here (I didn't know all these existed), but I don't need to try to trip if I am facing an inappropriate enemy, and I will just power attack them. Now if I AM facing someone relatively 'tripable' and I manage to trip them, I get a free attack of opportunity due to Greater Trip, plus they need to spend an action to get back up which will provoke a SECOND attack of opportunity from me.
Now I know that this all is very situational, but even when trip is not possible, will not my reach+combat reflexes offset my low AB/Dmg through that sheer number of attacks of opportunities? If they try to move around me, I can move too, plus they have already wasted a lot of moves trying to circle around me. In any case, I still have my bow, with a high enough Dex to make good use of it.
So, back to the initial scenario, what will go wrong when I try to set up in front of my team to protect them from incoming baddies? I am now convinced that Trip will only be a situational luxury, but what about the rest of the play?!
| Chengar Qordath |
Now I know that this all is very situational, but even when trip is not possible, will not my reach+combat reflexes offset my low AB/Dmg through that sheer number of attacks of opportunities?
Not necessarily. It doesn't matter how many attacks you get if you can't hit the target and/or significantly hurt what you hit. Especially since there's no guarantee you'll get all those attacks of opportunity. Movement only ever gives on AoO no matter how many of your threatened squares the enemy moves through, so your one attack needs to be dangerous enough to make enemies think twice about trying to pass by you.
| BadBird |
If you want to 'control' things with combat maneuvers, there's also the Shield Slam ability which overrules many of the normal issues with small combat maneuvers, since it uses your attack roll instead of CMB on a free bull rush. Instead of tripping with a reach weapon, you slam foes away from your allies. If I'm bored at work I'll throw something together, like maybe a Fighter/Barbarian Halfling using Spring Attack Shield Slam to throw feckless enemies all over the place while guarding allies.
| BadBird |
You know, if you really want to maximize the power of a reach-trip Core Halfling...
Rory Pieclawer, the Half(ling)-Dragon Dragon-Halfling
Draconic Sorcerer 2/ Fighter 4/ Dragon Disciple 4
1F. Combat Expertise / +Improved Trip
2F. +Combat Reflexes
3S. Arcane Armor Training
4S.
5F. Weapon Focus: Guisarme
6DD.
7DD. Arcane Armor Mastery / +Power Attack
8F. +Greater Trip
9DD. Arcane Strike
10DD.
Access to Sorcerer spells means reliable Enlarge Person, Draconic Blood and Dragon Disciple means strength and armor. Is it cheating to be an enlarged, dragon-blooded Halfling?