I believe most of the "confusion" about this spell results directly form the core rule book paragraphs...
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
If you read them both all the way through, without aligning their meaning to preconceived notions, "touch spells" are never clearly defined as this or that. "Many spells have a range of touch." is NOT the same as..."all touch spells have a range of touch". Apparently this IS what it means, but is poorly written.
Furthermore,"Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity." Is a unclear sentence because it includes "with a touch spell" in it, instead of "Touching an opponent with a offensive/damaging spell". Now we now these rules apply to things like produce flame.
Make these 2 changes and most anybody will understand it straight off.
You keep saying that if one reads these that touch spells are not clearly defined. The entire Touch Spells In Combat section mentions only one class of spell, those that have a range of touch. Anyone who passed the reading comprehension section of the standardized tests in elementary school is able to understand the very clear implication that touch spells are spells with a range of touch since that section deals with no other type of spell. The text is not confusing generally no matter how much it was confusing to you personally.
If all these rules only apply to "touch spells" why do we apply some of the rules to non "touch spells" such as produce flame??? Because there is a difference between "touch attacks" and "touch spells" Those differences from the the TWO paragraphs I sight are murky at best. I ALWAYS tested in the 99 percentile in reading comprehension, by the way. What is the harm in pointing out a clearer way of presenting the rules?
You keep saying that if one reads these that touch spells...
We do not apply any of the rules in the "Touch Spells In Combat" to produce flame. The section "Touch Attacks" under the heading "Touch Spells In Combat" applies ONLY to Touch Spells In Combat. Why would you think it applied to anything else?
Under the Armor Class section there is a subheading of "Touch Attacks" that applies to touch attacks in general. Those are the rules that apply to touch attacks from a source that is not a Touch Spell. Those are the rules we use for produce flames.
I honestly don't know how anyone can not understand that simple concept.
I honestly don't know how anyone can not understand that simple concept.
Probably want to regulate the way you are communicating. You are coming off as hostile and seem to be insinuating that anyone who can not understand this is either stupid or mentally challenged.
Not many people immediately grasp the difference between the two items. They see a spell that lets you deliver a spell with a touch as a 'touch spell'. What is needed is a well-worded explanation that they are not the same, rather than an attack of their intelligence.
Not many people immediately grasp the difference between the two items. They see a spell that lets you deliver a spell with a touch as a 'touch spell'. What is needed is a well-worded explanation that they are not the same, rather than an attack of their intelligence.
The section "Touch Spells In Combat" specifically tells you what touch spells are. They are spells with a range of touch. Does the spell have a range of touch? No? Then it isn't a touch spell and thus does not use any of the rules you find in that section.
I'm still waiting for this "many" who are confused to chime in. The OP, and now you, are the only ones who have suggested anyone may be confused by this text. Your response for why is because someone who doesn't thoroughly read the text and just reads the words "touch attack" in Produce Flame and the Touch Spells In Combat section may misunderstand. Well then maybe they should thoroughly read the section.
A few days ago there was a discussion about saves for ships in combat and I mistakenly said that the ship did not receive a save because I didn't thoroughly read the rules. When the relevant texts were pointed out I didn't start arguing "Well that is just unclear and they need to fix that." I simply said that I didn't read it thoroughly and was wrong.
The OP has been shown repeatedly his initial reading was incomplete and yet continues to simply claim the text is confusing because if one just reads portions instead of all of the relevant text they might misunderstand.
If someone fails to read the complete text and then misunderstands it that is on them.
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I believe most of the "confusion" about this spell results directly form the core rule book paragraphs...
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
If you read them both all the way through, without aligning their meaning to preconceived notions, "touch spells" are never clearly defined as this or that. "Many spells have a range of touch." is NOT the same as..."all touch spells have a range of touch". Apparently this IS what it means, but is poorly written.
Furthermore,"Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity." Is a unclear sentence because it includes "with a touch spell" in it, instead of "Touching an opponent with a offensive/damaging spell". Now we now these rules apply to things like produce flame.
Make these 2 changes and most anybody will understand it straight off.
What is a touch spell is is defined in the magic chapter.
That is the appropriate section to define it and there is no reason to repeat the definition in the combat chapter.Similarly the damage, threat range and critical multiplier of a bow or dagger are described in the equipment chapter and aren't repeated when you speak of ranged or melee attacks in the combat chapter.
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Furthermore,"Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity." Is a unclear sentence because it includes "with a touch spell" in it, instead of "Touching an opponent with a offensive/damaging spell". Now we now these rules apply to things like produce flame.
I want to address this. Probably I have been unclear in previous posts.
"Offensive/damaging touch spells" isn't a existing category.
I shared that opinion, thinking that only offensive spells counted as armed attacks.
I was show in this forum that they aren't an existing category.
If you look this thread you will see that it took 117 posts to convince me of that.
You are making the same error, you still think that "Touching an opponent with a offensive/damaging spell" is different from touching it with a non offensive or damaging spell (or at least it seem to me that you were saying that).
Any touch range spell count as an armed attack and you don't generate attacks of opportunity when touching the opponent.
Produce flame do something different that has nothing to do with touch spells or touching someone with a spell. It give you a weapon, like spells that make you grow claws give you a natural attack.
The fact that you are wielding a weapon allow you to avoid the AoO.
It is difficult to get when you read the rules the first time? Sure, we are speaking of 500+ pages of rules.
I am still finding small things in some corner of them (generally discovering how the interaction of some CRB rule with later books will require re-reading and re-evaluating of old interpretations).
But that don't mean that the rules are badly written. It mean that digesting 500+ pages of rules require times and seeing how they interact in actual play.
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Furthermore,"Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity." Is a unclear sentence because it includes "with a touch spell" in it, instead of "Touching an opponent with a offensive/damaging spell". Now we now these rules apply to things like produce flame.I want to address this. Probably I have been unclear in previous posts.
"Offensive/damaging touch spells" isn't a existing category.
I shared that opinion, thinking that only offensive spells counted as armed attacks.
I was show in this forum that they aren't an existing category.
If you look this thread you will see that it took 117 posts to convince me of that.You are making the same error, you still think that "Touching an opponent with a offensive/damaging spell" is different from touching it with a non offensive or damaging spell (or at least it seem to me that you were saying that).
Any touch range spell count as an armed attack and you don't generate attacks of opportunity when touching the opponent.
Produce flame do something different that has nothing to do with touch spells or touching someone with a spell. It give you a weapon, like spells that make you grow claws give you a natural attack.
The fact that you are wielding a weapon allow you to avoid the AoO.It is difficult to get when you read the rules the first time? Sure, we are speaking of 500+ pages of rules.
I am still finding small things in some corner of them (generally discovering how the interaction of some CRB rule with later books will require re-reading and re-evaluating of old interpretations).But that don't mean that the rules are badly written. It mean that digesting 500+ pages of rules require times and seeing how they interact in actual play.
I suspect what's being pointed out is that the Touch Attack rules specifically say "with a touch spell", which everyone has just established that Produce Flame is not. Therefore, there's no basis from which to assume the text following that applies to Produce Flame, such as "is considered an armed attack", which everyone seems to think does apply to Produce Flame.
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I suspect what's being pointed out is that the Touch Attack rules specifically say "with a touch spell", which everyone has just established that Produce Flame is not. Therefore, there's no basis from which to assume the text following that applies to Produce Flame, such as "is considered an armed attack", which everyone seems to think does apply to Produce Flame.
Sure.
Like Flame Blade, Produce Flame give the caster a weapon, not a attack armed by a touch spell.