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As the title states. I'll be taking 4 levels in Unchained Rogue and 16 levels in Fighter. I'm not sure how long the campaign will last, but I like to plan long term.
Any advice on feats would be appreciated, as well as suggestions for starting talents, Rogue Talents and gear. I'll be using two kukris for melee and a shortbow for ranged.
The highlights of the build will be:
Dex to damage via Finesse Training
2d6 sneak attack via Sneak Attack
Lots of skills via 8 + int from Rogue
Evasion/Uncanny Dodge from Rogue
Weapon Focus via Finesse Training 2
Move full speed during stealth via Rogue Talent
Up to Mithral Breastplate (+5 Mithral Breastplate nets me +11 to armor AC and no movement impairment or dex reduction!)
+19 Base Attack Bonus and d10s for HD
Fighter levels grants lots of feats including:
Two-Weapon Fighting chain
Weapon Focus chain
Weapon Specialization chain
Piranha Strike
Improved Critical, Staggering Critical, Bleeding Critical and Critical Mastery
And ranged feats to assist with ranged: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot and Manyshot
Fighter Bonus Feat 1st & 16th are still open, and feats from levels 17th and 19th are still open.
Why Fighter?
Rogue wants 16 levels in the class for full leveling on Debilitating Injury. It gives you more damage than Weapon Training due to Sneak Attack scaling. Plus, it's not like Rogue needs the feats.
You also miss out on Debilitating Injury, Hunter's Surprise (which works great with sneaky weapons if you want to plan long term, getting a full 5 Hunter's Surprise uses per day), Slippery Mind, Opportunist...
Mithral Breastplate only adds +6 to your possible AC... at level 20! Debilitating Injury lets you run the attack penalty and the AC penalty together, for a virtual +8 to AC at level 16!
I just don't see the point, unless it's what you want to build.
I see your point with the Debilitating Injury. I just figured the extra AC all the time would be better than +8 when attacking. Also, it would only apply to targets I sneak attacked so everyone else would have a much better chance to hit.
The sneak attack dice, on average, net me 28 damage on each attack at 16, but again, only when I can sneak attack or flank. With the current build I simply hit the closest guy.
I'd also be missing out on a +4 to hit and an extra attack from BAB. In my opinion, BAB falls into the same category for melee as caster levels do for casters. You just don't sacrifice them. For a TWF, BAB is everything. It's hard to compete with other melee types if you're constantly missing.
I probably should have specified, this is a TWF build. It's not meant to be a Rogue. I just dipped because it was the only way to get Dex to damage which helps with the MAD.
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I probably should have specified, this is a TWF build. It's not meant to be a Rogue. I just dipped because it was the only way to get Dex to damage which helps with the MAD.
Not the only way.
When my players want a TWF-build, I ask them, what they actually imagine by saying "I want a character fighting with two weapons." Most of them think about a rogue, and the unchained rogue isn't bad.But: There are enough ways to make TWF work, even without DEX to damage. The easiest way is to just play a Slayer, get DEX to 15 for some feats and take the TWF stuff via Ranger Combat styles. Let STR be your highest stat.
You have full BAB, high skill point, sneak attack and even flat bonus to hit/damage.
Also there is the Agile Weapon enchantment. Sawtooth Sabres, a dip into Swashbuckler and Slashing Grace also works.
Then straight fighters with the new advanced weapon training can get enough flat damage on TWF-builds with DEX to hit and STR to damage.
Just tell us, what you want to achieve with your character.
Apologies, it was the only way I knew of to get Dex to damage. And as I said, the only reason I did that was so that I didn't have to worry about pumping too many abilities.
It also helps with having a back up in that, if I'm not able to get to melee or it might be foolhardy, I can have a dependable ranged attack.
I considered the Ranger or Slayer, but they felt feat starved. I may look back into it. I hadn't seen the Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style. Those look nice. Slayer also fits with the theme of the character.
To answer your question: He'll be a soldier of the temple of Tyr (Forgotten Realms CS). Tyr is an executor of the law and I thought he could be some what of a lawman.
His role will be a damage dealer in combat (probably one of the more dedicated). Out of combat, he'll have diplomacy and sense motive maxed to assist the face. He will also have knowledge local maxed so that he can participate in court hearings and such.
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Whats wrong with a Str build for TWF?
Slayer or Ranger does very well with TWF and does it best.
Since you missed the Ranger combat style defiantly go back and look at them. Str Based just does so much better than Dex when it comes to damage. You also Overlooked the Rogue talents for Combat Trick which is a Bonus Combat feat. You can literally have as many feats as a fighter but have better saves, more skills, and access to some feats without need for Pre-reqs.
I personally do not TWF and as a player prefer 2HF styles. Less feats needed to be good and you are not as penalized when you can not get your full attack. The only builds I use TWF on are Sword and Board builds and Brawler/Monk (as "flurry" is basically TWF now). Other than that I avoid it. (well Fruian what about when you play a rogue?) I don't play that class EVER.
Good bit of advice about TWF chain.
Twf- Good
ITWF- Still decent.
GTWF- IT A TRAP!!!!! Do NOT take. Build for two weapon rend as you will hit more often and for more damage.
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Also there is the Agile Weapon enchantment. Sawtooth Sabres, a dip into Swashbuckler and Slashing Grace also works.
Then straight fighters with the new advanced weapon training can get enough flat damage on TWF-builds with DEX to hit and STR to damage.Just tell us, what you want to achieve with your character.
Nope, slashing grace is for one weapon only. Rouge is only one non-item way to get dex to damage for twf.
If you take fighter with both the Drill Sergeant and Mutation Warrior archetypes you will get:
Teamwork feat at lvl 1 you can share with another party member even if they don't meet the prereqs
Mutagen for flexible +4 alchemical bonus to any chosen physical stat (more dex for damage? more str for CMB?)
Alchemical Discovery off a short list including: feral mutagen (gives you natural attacks and natural AC), wings (gives you wings + fly speed), increasing the bonus on mutagen to affect 2 stats (+6 and +4 improved, +8 and +6 greater), anti crit bonus, extra arms/tentacles
EDIT: some teamwork feats that might be helpful:
Benefit: When you are adjacent to an ally with this feat, the first time you melee attack an opponent, you can spend an immediate action to take a 5-foot step, even if you have otherwise moved this round.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
if you take the feral mutagen
Benefit(s): Whenever you are flanking with an ally who also has this feat, as a swift action you can make a bite attack against the opponent you and your ally are flanking.
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Nope, slashing grace is for one weapon only. Rouge is only one non-item way to get dex to damage for twf.
Also there is the Agile Weapon enchantment. Sawtooth Sabres, a dip into Swashbuckler and Slashing Grace also works.
Then straight fighters with the new advanced weapon training can get enough flat damage on TWF-builds with DEX to hit and STR to damage.Just tell us, what you want to achieve with your character.
Snap, didn't noticed, that Slashing Grace got an errata. Well yeah, then you wont have that option anymore.
Then the best option would be Slayer I think.
You also should not underestimate a straight Fighter with the following:
Paired with the flat bonuses from (Greater) Weapon Spezialisation and a fair STR modifier you are still doing a great amount of damage. Also your to hit is probably the highest as Fighter, so even the lowest attacks can hit.
Like mentioned above, the Mutation Warrior can boost his stats even more.
DEX-to-damage is not good for TWF. Two-Weapon Rend doesn't work with it.
I'd very much make either a Slayer, Ranger, Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor or Nature Fang Druid with high STR and combat style feats...
or a STR/DEX Fighter/Tempered Champion Paladin/Warpriest.
The only build I'd go with DEX TWF is Rogue.
Okay, okay, okay. So, you all sound very much against the Dex base TWF type. Could someone number wang it for me? With the Dex build I have put forward, I estimated the DPR to be ~296.8 at 20th and that was based off the Pit Fiend numbers and not considering any damaging weapon enhancements save the enhancement itself (again, building for long term.) I thought that sounded respectable.
Scott Wilhelm- I mos def have two kukris! I've played many-a-rogue in my day and I love them! In regard to the Warpriest, we already have someone playing one in the party and I don't really want to step on any toes. Although, without much reading, I've heard they are a lil' OP for most players taste. Is that true? Lmao, those builds! You went off! I can tell you've thought a lot about this. I'm going to be lawful good and am intending the character to represent that in appearence and practice so I'm not sure I would want to be something like Vivisectionist.
Fruian Thistlefoot- I hear ya on the whole 2H vs. TWF, but I prefer the latter. Optimization-wise it's "sub par and feat intensive.", but I it has a different play style than the 2H. Using skills better like stealth, acrobatics, fly etc. And I've heard the same thing about GTWF. On average, it seems I have about a 55% chance to hit with my last attack and a 68% chance to hit with my GTWF attack. I guess it felt like a good enough chance to me lol. You said Two Weapon Rend is the better option, so I'm looking into that.
Ridiculon- Those Teamwork Feats doe... That sounds awesome. I originally considered the the Mutation Warrior variant and the Drill Sergeant. Do you have any numbers to throw around? Experience with this kind of build? Or you could send me a sample build. I've never messed with Alchemist and certainly not Mutagens so I'd have to read over it all.
Nazrelle- So, using 20 pts, the build would look something like? If you'll give me an array I'll play with feats. It just seems that keying the attack and damage off two different ability scores is stretching my scores a little thin. That was the whole reason I dipped Rogue was to base most everything off of Dex: AC, attack, damage, reflex saves, skills (acrobatics, fly, stealth). If I keyed off of two different ones my attacks and damage would be halved or I'd be using precious points from elsewhere like Con or Int.
Secret Wizard- I don't currently have Two-Weapon Rend on my feat list for that exact reason. I'm currently looking into Slayer. I like the theme and it fits with the character concept of a lawman/bounty hunter. Again, those builds are keying off of two different abilities for attack and damage. If you could throw out a build, to whatever level it's mature at, I can run the numbers, but I'm having a hard time seeing how going MAD is optimal. I thought that was one of the two reasons 2H fighter types were optimal other than feats?
Imbicatus- Agian, MAD? So, you're suggesting I key my ability qualifications off of Int, my attack off of Dex and damage off of Str? I'm confused on those abilities.
I have a lot of reading to do with all that you guys have thrown out. Thank you and I'll be right back.
I'd love to number wang!!!!
Tell me rules for character creation, wealth, point buy, traits, preferred races, etc. DISCLAIMER: I am going to spend feats on Iron Will and Improved Initiative, for example, if I go Slayer. I tend to like to close weaknesses on my classes and so on.
That being said, a Pit Fiend is low AC for 20th level.
Secret Wizard- I don't currently have Two-Weapon Rend on my feat list for that exact reason. I'm currently looking into Slayer. I like the theme and it fits with the character concept of a lawman/bounty hunter. Again, those builds are keying off of two different abilities for attack and damage. If you could throw out a build, to whatever level it's mature at, I can run the numbers, but I'm having a hard time seeing how going MAD is optimal. I thought that was one of the two reasons 2H fighter types were optimal other than feats?
MAD is optimal because it boosts your character in several ways.
DEX-based builds die, invariably, due to grappling and disarm, or STR drain from shades.
Pure STR builds die for the same reasons except STR drain.
A healthy mix gives you a solid CMB and overall better stats for a frontliner.
Btw, FIghter types want high DEX too. 14 minimum.
Ridiculon- I looked over your suggestion. This actually interests me quite a bit. So, you're suggesting that I take Weapon Training: Light Blades, take Outflank, find a buddy with a high crit weapon and then go to town on someone. I'm a little turned off by the small number of mutegens I get, but I suppose if I save it for the big bad it wouldn't be so bad. The loss of Armor Training hurts too. At high levels, I'm looking at a +9 Dex mod (+13 with Grand Mutegen). I'd have to go Bracers of Armor. There's not an armor that would accommodate such an ability mod.
If nothing else, I may go Drill Sergeant anyway for the Tactician ability. I was looking for a way to fill a third role anyway lol
Secret Wizard- "That's NUMBER WANG!"
So, it'll be:
Level 16
20 pts. point buy
Wealth by level
Haven't selected Traits. Take whatever is most beneficial
Preferred race is Human, but really anything off the core list is fine.
By the way, rather than Drill Sergenat, I recommend straight Mutation Warrior.
You can get Solo Tactics at level 5 as a Fighter through Advanced Weapon Training.
Secret Wizard- "That's NUMBER WANG!"
So, it'll be:
Level 16
20 pts. point buy
Wealth by level
Haven't selected Traits. Take whatever is most beneficial
Preferred race is Human, but really anything off the core list is fine.
Ok, so making a build with a couple of suboptimal choices on purpose, dude is full attacking with haste from Boots of Speed (no other external buffs):
This is the Mutation Warrior Fighter with Fighter's Tactics to use teamwork feats (rather than Drill Sergeant because meh)
Dual Talent Human
S16+2 D15+2 C14 I12 W10 CH7 at creation
+D1, +S3 from leveling
+SDC4 belt of physical perfection
+SC6 from greater mutagen
S27 D22 C24 I12 W10 CH7
1. TWF, Cosmopolitan
2. Double Slice
3. Iron Will
4. Weapon Focus
5. Advanced Weapon Training (Armed Bravery). WT: Light blades
6. ITWF
7. Combat Reflexes, Vestigial Arm
8. Imp Crit
9. Outflank, WT: Advanced Weapon Training (Fighter's Tactics
10. Advanced Weapon Training (Focused Weapon)
11. Precise Strike, Wings
12. GTWF
13. Greater Weapon Focus, WT: Fighter's Reflexes
14. Cut from the Air
15. Advanced Weapon Training (Weapon Mastery: Smash from the Air), Greater Mutagen
16. Coordinated Charge
+5 kukri x2
+2 mithral ghost touch kikko armor
+4 belt of physical perfection
+4 heavy shield
+4 cloak of protection
+2 ring of protection
+2 amulet of natural armor
Gloves of Dueling
Cap of the Free Thinker
Boots of Speed
Ring of Evasion
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone
Cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone
DEFENSES
HP 16d10+112 (average 204)
AC 41 (42 while hasted)
FORT +18, REF +20 (+21 while hasted) (evasion), WILL +17 (cap of the free thinker)
+ Cut from the AIr and Smash from the Air
OFFENSE
+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22
+1 while using boots of speed, +4 while flanking
6 attacks of opportunity per round
MH damage: 2d6+18+1d6 while flanking, 15-20/2x
OH damage: 2d6+14+1d6 while flanking, 15-20/2x
DPR vs. 38 AC using boots of speed: 193.45
But because I assume you calculated your DPR assuming full sneak attack, I'mma assume my guy is flanking too :P
DPR vs. 38 AC using boots of speed and flanking: 242.22 DPR
+ Outflank attacks of opportunity, of course.
Also note that dude has a flight speed and doesn't require teammates to qualify for teamwork feats, so you can use Coordinated Charge and the rest at your heart's leisure.
Secret Wizard- Where to begin?
I'll start off with the easy one: your wealth is WAY off. You have about 315,000gp to spend and you maxed your credit and went into dept with 401,000gp.
Also, you have a Cloak of Protection and a Ring of Protection which don't stack.
The other stuff has to do with feats and the Advanced Weapon Training (AWT).
You took Armed Bravery at 5th (You can't take AWT until 9th minimum)
You also took another AWT at 10th (Focused Weapon). I'm fairly certain it's a substitute for Weapon Training. Unless I'm reading something wrong.
Cut From the Air requires Power Attack, which I didn't see.
Smash From the Air requires Cut From the Air (which you don't qualify for without PA)
I'm not sure where you're getting that AC either. Maybe it's off because of the item issues I already mentioned?
Also, I did not assume Flanking or the DPR would have been substantially higher.
1. I meant Cloak of Resistance, not Protection XD
2. I have 315k gp. I don't know where you are getting 401k gp. Here's proof. (Just realized you can't see it but it says "Quantity 2" on kukri +5)
3. You can take the Advanced Weapon Training feat at level 5, and every 5 levels. Which I'm doing because it's great.
4. It's not a substitute for Weapon Training. It literally gives your weapon damage dice the Warpriest damage dice. It turns it from 1d4 to a scaling amount.
5. You are absolutely right on Cut from the Air. I cut (pun intended) Power Attack and some point and forgot to modify those. Feel free to take Weapon Spec or some other utility.
6. AC is = 10 + 6 DEX + 7 armor + 2 ring + 2 amulet + 6 heavy shield (remember the vestigial arm?) + 1 ioun stone + 4 greater mutagen + 3... from the armor bonus that I took away for ghost touch. DUH! Should be 38 or 39 while hasted.
7. Whelp, I don't know how you are dealing 293 DPR if you weren't adding Sneak Attack. Do note that my build takes a lot of survivability things too. (Oh, wait, I just realized you meant 296 at level 20. That makes more sense. Anyway, let me know how 193DPR compares to what you have at 16. At 20 level, this guy has 3x crit multiplier and auto confirm on crits, so I don't think anyone can even touch his output.)
You're right on the AWT. I didn't see that. I'll have to add that into my build. I didn't have any of those bonuses added in from AWT or Weapon Training. Oops.
The +6 natural armor from mutagen overlaps, not stacks per the rule on bonuses. "Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to armor class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses."
Also, I'm not sure about that Vestigial Arm wielding the shield. It doesn't specify it in the text so I guess it flies. Just seems... "cheaty" lol
And you're right on the items. My eyes went to the Belt of Physical Perfection +6 instead of +4. That made the different right there.
The +6 natural armor from mutagen overlaps, not stacks per the rule on bonuses. "Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to armor class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses."
Also, I'm not sure about that Vestigial Arm wielding the shield. It doesn't specify it in the text so I guess it flies. Just seems... "cheaty" lol
1. The natural armor stacks with the amulet if that's what you are saying, because Amulet of Natural Armor adds an enhancement bonus to natural armor. It's meant to stack explicitly, it's in the description of the amulet. It also stacks with "all other types of armor (even armor bonuses)", as per the quote you stated there.
2. Shrug, Vestigial Arm shielding is a time tested tradition. I mean, if I didn't do that, I would be using Defensive Weapon Training from AWT which gives me +4 shield bonus, then replace Vestigial Arm for the discovery that grants 25% fortification, and lose Fighter's Reflexes (that's uh -5 Reflex, not the end of the world).
Glad to be of service.
Using Boots of Speed and Flanking full attack at Level 16:
+15(BAB) +9(Dex) +2(Weapon Training) +2(WF, GWF) +5(Weapon Ehancement) +4(Flank) +1(Haste) +1(Ioun Stone) -2(TWF) = +39 To Hit
1d10(Focused Weapon) +9(Dex) +5(Enhancement) +4(WS, GWS) +10(Piranha Strike) +7(Average on 2d6 SA) = ~40 Main Hand
1d10(Focused Weapon) +9(Dex) +5(Enhancement) +4(WS, GWS) +5(Piranha Strike) +7(Average on 2d6 SA) = ~35 Off-Hand
Main Hand (.95x40)(2)+(.89x40)+(.76x40)+(.63x40)= ~167
Off Hand (.95x35)+(.89x35)+(.76x35)= ~91
DPR= ~258(Not considering criticals)
+10(Base) +9(Dex) +11(+5 Mithral Breastplate) +3(Natural Armor) +2(Armor Training) +1(Haste) +1(Ioun Stone)
AC= 42
I'm pretty sure my math is right. Now if I kept my build, swap for the Mutation Warrior variant and changed up my armor, I think I could tear a castle down in a few rounds.
I messed up. Minus an attack from that sequence. I thought that seemed too good to be true lol.
DPR should be ~232
Yey, flanking STR Mutant Fighter wins! :P
Also, do note that you have no way to get full DEX to your off-hand attack. Double Slice does not apply.
That should be about 30 per offhand.
AC is equal, btw, because your build doesn't have Ghost Touch and mine does. You could just remove Ghost Touch for +3 AC and we'll both sit on 41 AC.
You're probably right on the ghost touch.
And my build doesn't have full dex on off hand. It should be 34 instead of 35. I'm not sure why I rounded up. That would only adjust it by 3 pts. (3 Off-hand attacks)
Also, not sure how Mutant wins? My DPR doesn't included crit damage. It would be pushing ~250 if that were included.
I also see here that Focused Weapon applies to any weapon that the fighter has Weapon Focus on. That's sick! A bow could be doing 2d8.
I think I'll try a Fighter archer build and see what it looks.