|
Hey gang,
I have a PFS build in mind for controlling the undead. I'm thinking of making a cleric of Abadar who believes in giving the dead a second chance to serve a just cause. He reanimates them or takes control to steer their fate to justice. I'm not looking to play a borderline evil cleric. Here's the build I have so far:
Human Cleric of Abadar (8th lv)
Str 8
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16+2: 18
Domains:
Nobility?
Travel
Feats:
Selective Channeling (Human)
Command Undead (1st)
Improved Channeling (3rd)
Versatile Channeler? (5th)
Bestow Hope (7th)
Other feats in mind:
Undead Master
Quick Channel
Traits:
Sacred Conduit
The build seems straightforward enough with me starting to channel negative energy and eventually getting the option to channel positive. Is this the order you would go with for feats? Any other suggestions you have in mind? Would you go into Holy Vindicator after lv 8?
Thanks!
I get that they're dead and evil, but doesn't stripping willful creatures of their capacity to make choices, then forcing them against their will to do something they didn't want to do seem... well evil? Even if it's for a good cause it seems like a misguided evil guy thing to do. Ultron actually comes to mind, save the planet by killing mankind - redeem their souls by dominating and controlling them.
If you're pumping Cha and letting wis slide on a cleric, have you considered going oracle instead so you're at least boosting your casting stat? Something like Juju mystery? It seems like your non-channeling options will be a bit limited.
Holy vindicator is a neat dip, provides some front line/defensive features, but if you have a collection of undead to protect you, are you going to need what it provides? Plus with 8 str, not sure how much combat you'll want to get into. I suppose you could go after a guided weapon.
I always war with things like quick channel vs imp. channel. Is it better to boost the DC by 2, or to make them roll twice, and hope for the dice to fail. Ideally you'll have both eventually, though quick channel is also nice to drop some heals with versatile in a desperate situation. I might suggest it over bestow hope.
Again, it seems like if you aren't channeling, will you have a lot to do? What's your plan for combat if there isn't an undead around?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Instead of Nobility, take the Law domain and the Inevitable subdomain. You'll get command undead as a 2nd-level domain spell. This allows you to qualify for Undead Master as early as at 3rd level, if you feel like taking the feat. In any case, Abadar is a really good deity for the necromancer, so good choice there. Justifying necromancy can be a bit Expect Table Variation(tm), but you seem to have figured that one out already.
Stay away from Holy Vindicator. Doesn't progress the DC of your Command Undead feat, and slows down the caster level progression.
Personally I'd dump Dex to 10 and/or Int to 7, and raise Str to 10 and maybe get Wis a point or two higher.
Quick Channel is very powerful if you want to focus on Command Undead.
|
|
@ Varalash:
First, thanks for the feedback. I will say that I'm less interested in going over the legitimacy of these features and more interested in the mechanics. My base assumption (no pun intended) is PFS allows for these feats and spells, so they are not automatically evil acts. Furthermore, your argument would rule out almost all mind-affecting abilities (especially enchantments) because they force someone's will.
I will add that this character is giving someone a chance to serve in something just one last time. In PFS, more specifically, anything I animate or control will go away at the end of the scenario, so any undead I control will usually serve in righting the wrongs they participated in.
Onto the build! I considered Oracle but they have more limited spell casting and are not as strong channelers. They start out at 1+cha and don't qualify for versatile channeling.
I started with a lower wisdom because I plan on functioning in a support role, primarily through buffs and restoration.
@ Mighty Glacier:
The command undead spell seems fragile. Still, getting Undead Master earlier might have something to it. I'm not sure about how important the feat will be.
I'll note what you said about Holy Vindicator. I didn't think about it not progressing Command Undead. Bummer.
I too am tempted to bump the strength up. I prefer high strength characters in general so having a low strength feels...wrong. A 10 Str might not make a difference, but would make buffing myself for combat a bit more viable.
Does Quick Channel actually modify Command Undead? I'm not channeling, just using one of my uses. I would love it if it did.
Any archetypes you all would suggest? Also, do you think Versatile Channeler is worth it? I'm considering it for the ability to heal and combat and some of the other feats it might open. However, my plan/hope is to be healing allies with a wand outside of combat. Thanks!
@ Mighty Glacier:
The command undead spell seems fragile. Still, getting Undead Master earlier might have something to it. I'm not sure about how important the feat will be.
I don't personally have any real experience with Abadaran necromancers, but some people have said that command undead spell can come in handy if they run out of HD for Command Undead feat. It also benefits from Spell Focus (necr.), so that and Undead Master complement one another very nicely. If you plan on taking Undead Master, choose Inevitable.
As for whether Undead Master is worth taking, well, if you plan on using Command Undead, it's practically a must. Otherwise you might not be able to command any undead you encounter, at all. Many CR-appropriate undead just have too much HD: getting +4 HD is a godsend.
Does jack squad for uses of animate dead, though. I really wish Paizo would get around to fixing the wording.
I too am tempted to bump the strength up. I prefer high strength characters in general so having a low strength feels...wrong. A 10 Str might not make a difference, but would make buffing myself for combat a bit more viable.
Truth be told I wasn't thinking about making your build more melee-oriented. I've just found that carrying capacity changes quite dramatically from Str 7 to 10. If you want to move at full speed later on, wearing a mithral breastplate, then that Str 10 may make the difference between light and medium load.
Does Quick Channel actually modify Command Undead? I'm not channeling, just using one of my uses. I would love it if it did.
I'm 99.9% sure it does. Never have I seen anyone argue otherwise. After all, you are channeling: only that instead of dealing or healing damage the effects are that of Command Undead feat.
Any archetypes you all would suggest? Also, do you think Versatile Channeler is worth it? I'm considering it for the ability to heal and combat and some of the other feats it might open. However, my plan/hope is to be healing allies with a wand outside of combat. Thanks!
Well, Undead Lord is banned, so I don't need to go over that...
There aren't many PFS-lega cleric archetypes for the type of character you're going for. You could go Ecclesitheurge and abandon armor in exchange for more magical flexibility. That's about it.
As a cleric who channels negative energy, yeah, Versatile Channeler could be appreciated in PFS tables. At higher levels one use of channel energy, when used out-of-combat, could fix the whole party up. Then again, wands of CLW are a thing and the level drop is a bit meh... I'd say don't prioritize it.
|
|
Abadar and Nethys are both good gods to pick for a Neutral cleric neither has a problem with undead. I'd pick Inevitable and Defense as your Domains both offer different and in my mind better spells and the abilities are more impressive. Now Holy Vindicator for one level is nice simply for the defense boost using your channel but otherwise isn't worth taking. Envoy of Balance is actually a nice prestige class for two levels for it's ability to channel both positive and negative energy at equal level.
Regarding Undead my advice reread everything about Animate Dead, Desecrate and Undead Master. The wording is misleading all over the place. Another bit of advice is look at the Occultist and the school of Necromany. The school's base power is what you want for having an army of undead.
Another approach is worship Anubis taking the Undead Lord archtype and still consider both the Occultist and a level of Holy Vindicator. The level one ability to get an AC bonus based off your channel is preety nice for a level hit.
Derek,
Thanks for the domain suggestions. Both provide nice support abilities. The Law ability is just so hard to pass by though...especially at higher levels. On the other hand, I might have better things to do with a standard action. I looked at Envoy of Balance and loved it! Looks like it could provide some nice boosts for my channeling for losing a bit of HP and base attack. I also was not aware of Anubis as an option and that even seems better. I think the Death domain would work quite well for my character (especially the amazing lv 8 ability). I don't plan on creating undead but I'll gladly take animate. The undead subdomain seems interesting but I don't know how well it would work.
I would recommend keeping the Nobility domain - it's power is very useful in and out of combat ("You can disable that trap! +2 Disable", "Your words will reach him! +2 Diplomacy"), and the spells are surprisingly effective for PFS. Moreover, it will keep you, and possibly other players, in the mindset that you're doing the undead commanding for noble reasons.
When I thought you were starting at 8th level, I was going to suggest nudging Wis and Cha to 15 each (before race), since you'll get two level-ups by 8th and you'll need 16 Wis before 11th level. But for PFS, a Wis Iounstone slotted in a wayfinder would be a better solution - 16 Wis for 6th level spells, and free Blind-Fight feat (you'll need a copy of Seekers of Secrets of course).
Be very ready for table variation. I've GM'd for an animator before and was fairly generous - applying the zombie template on the fly to creatures found in the adventure. Others might only allow for standard skels and zombs directly out of the Bestiary, and you should probably consider that your default. .
|
|
I really like the theme of following Anubis. I'll have to read up on Osirian background. I think this could play into my different approach to the dead. I think I'll take the Death but I'm torn between Earth, Defense, and Inevitable.
I'm thinking:
Human Cleric 8/Envoy of Balance 3
Str 10
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 16+2: 18
Feats:
Selective Channeling (Human)
Command Undead (1st)
Improved Channeling (3rd)
Versatile Channeling (5th)
Fateful Channel (7th)
Undead Master (9th)
Not sure what to take after these. I suppose I could add in Extra Channel, but Improved Initiative might pay off better. Bumping Str to 10 will allow me to function in melee if forced and helps with carrying capacity. I'm worried about my skill points though, with 10 going into Knowledge (Planes) and Spellcraft for Envoy of Balance. Only leaves me with 6 extra.
Looks like I keep getting mixed messages on Undead Master. The pfsrd seems like it works with animate so that would be good. Not sure why people second guess the feat.
Besides the build features, anyone have advice for managing the undead in more social settings (towns, for example)? Can I leave them stationed outside the city? I've also thought about trying to disguise them with robes. I suppose I could always put them in a cart with a blanket hanging over and look like a graveyard employee.
Looks like I keep getting mixed messages on Undead Master. The pfsrd seems like it works with animate so that would be good. Not sure why people second guess the feat.
Hmmm.. I haven't made a study of it, but it could be that it says:
Benefit: When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice you animate. When you cast command undead, your duration is doubled.
While I wouldn't have an issue with the intent, technically it talks only about animating, not controlling. You don't animate when you use Command Undead, so it wouldn't do anything. *Technically*, but the intent is quite clear.
Fateful channel is Pharasma-worshippers only. Pharasma is never going to get behind your character's philosophy.
Dead meat and many bones ... smell. A lot. Unless you're passing them off as crazed barbarians, visual disguises won't be enough. Though alchemy may help here if you're willing to splash out on deodorants.
You can dump Int further to 7 with no loss in skill ranks since you are human. With Int 8 you get 2-1+1 = 2 per level, and with Int 7 you get 2-2 (min 1) +1 = 2 per level. Would bring Str up to 12.
What do you hope to gain from Envoy of Balance?
Undead Master feat is just so terribly written. It can be very useful or a complete waste of a feat depending on how you read it (and we're not going to get FAQ on it any time soon). Expect Table Variation(tm).
|
|
@ avr: Does Anubis not count as a god of death/graves? Seems legitimate to me. Good point about trying to disguise the smell...I suppose I could keep a few bars of soap handy when in a pinch.
@ Mighty Glacier: Good catch on the int dump; I forgot there is a minimum skill point allotment. Str of 12 makes wielding a flail a little more viable, especially with some buffs. Envoy of Balance will boost my positive channeling back up to my caster lv. Derek Dalton is right to point out that a one lv dip is probably all that's needed. With the ambiguity around Undead Master, I'll probably opt for something like Improved Initiative or Quick Channel. If my caster lv becomes an issue, I could also go for Spell Focus and then Spell Specialization for animate dead.
@ Derek Dalton: I'll take your advice about Envoy and opt for a one lv dip. I like the option of Holy Vindicator, but it requires alignment channel and I'm not sure I'll pick that up. Build looks like:
Cleric 10/Envoy of Balance 1
Str 12
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 14
Cha 16+2: 18
Feats:
Selective Channeling (Human)
Command Undead (1st)
Improved Channeling (3rd)
Versatile Channeling (5th)
Fateful Channel (7th)
Quick Channel/Improved Initiative (9th)
This build lets me act as the party's face, function as a summoner, dominate undead encounters, and still function well in support. I like it :)
|
croftstr, it looks like you're probably reading Fateful Channel from the pfsrd. It's out of Inner Sea Gods, and pfsrd has to replace all of the Golarion specific language when they list it. It is only available to worshippers of Pharasma. Pfsrd can't say Pharasma, because of licensing issues, so they changed it to God of death/graves. Since you're making the character for PFS, you have to stick to the Pharasma worshipper requirement.
|
|
croftstr, it looks like you're probably reading Fateful Channel from the pfsrd. It's out of Inner Sea Gods, and pfsrd has to replace all of the Golarion specific language when they list it. It is only available to worshippers of Pharasma. Pfsrd can't say Pharasma, because of licensing issues, so they changed it to God of death/graves. Since you're making the character for PFS, you have to stick to the Pharasma worshipper requirement.
My whole life is a lie...serves me right for not owning all the books. Oh well, there are plenty of other feats in the sea.
archivesofnethys.com is a good reference if you're going to be playing in PFS. Though don't they have a rule that you have to own the book to use its content?
I'm not thinking soap and water would do to cover up the scent of weeks-dead corpses. Which is why I'm suggesting alchemy, which isn't limited by mundane concerns.