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Recently I've seen a few threads about the advantage of the unchained monk versus the core monk, and I noticed that the way flurry of blows is worded means that it doesn't work exactly as I thought, or how a lot of people I know think it works.
To be clear here, I'm talking about the core monk, and a lot of this applies to the brawler too.
So, flurry of blows says that while making a flurry of blows a monk can make an additional attack as if using two weapon fighting. These attacks use your class level as your base attack bonus, and always deal your full strength to damage, whether using an off-hand or using 2 hands. Also, thanks to the monk blog, it's been clarified you can use 1 weapon to make a flurry of blows.
Two weapon fighting (the combat section, not the feat) says that if you wield a weapon in your off-hand, you may make an attack with it, taking a penalty to all attacks according to whether the off hand attack is a light weapon, and whether you have the two weapon fighting feat.
Then we take into account the armor spikes FAQ that states that while using a 2 handed weapon you cannot use 2 weapon fighting to make an attack with armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet because your off hand is being used with the 2 handed weapon.
Then to make matters more complicated, the monks unarmed strike says that there's no such thing as an off hand attack with an unarmed strike.
So, you combine all these together and you get the following results;
While making a flurry of blows with a 2 handed weapon, you don't gain an extra attack because your off-hand is already used. You only do 1x strength damage, though you do gain the increase to BAB, as well as 1.5x power attack damage.
While making a flurry of blows with a 1 handed weapon, you do gain an extra attack, gaining full BAB, but taking a -4 to all attacks for 2 weapon fighting. You deal 1x strength on all attacks, but power attack deals 1x damage for your main hand and 0.5x damage in your off hand.
While making a flurry of blows with a light weapon, you gain the extra attack, full BAB, -2 to attacks. Then 1x and 0.5x power attack for main and off hand.
While making a flurry of blows with unarmed strikes, you don't gain an extra attack because unarmed strikes for a monk aren't off hand attacks, and as such don't qualify to make an extra attack(?). You gain full BAB, deal 1x strength and 1x power attack.
Now, I'm not saying this is how it should work, or that this even makes sense. The monk table never shows a penalty worse than -2 for flurry of blows, and not being able to flurry with unarmed strikes is ridiculous. But doesn't some of the language for the monk need to be changed for all this to work out? Like instead of saying there's no such thing as an off hand attack for a monk attacking with an unarmed strike, shouldn't it just say instead that a monk takes no penalties for making an offhand attack with unarmed strikes, and deals damage as if it were a main hand attack?
I guess I have a few other questions too. Since my search-fu is pretty terrible, have any of the developers made comments to clarify these issues? And am I missing something in the monk section, or the combat chapter? I've read both numerous times, but am willing to admit I missed something. Also, is this how people have been playing their monks? Because I often see people making 2 attacks with 2 handed weapons while playing monks, or not taking off hand damage for power attack.
TL;DR I think flurry of blows has been broken this whole time, and I've just now noticed, am I wrong?
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Well, there's this FAQ.
Monk Flurry of Blows: When I use flurry of blows, can I make all of the attacks with just one weapon, or do I have to use two, as implied by the ability functioning similarly to Two-Weapon Fighting?
You can make all of your attacks with a single monk weapon. Alternatively, you can replace any number of these attacks with an unarmed strike. This FAQ specifically changes a previous ruling made in the blog concerning this issue.quote]
You're wrong since their not actually doing normal 2wf, it's been modified by the class abilities.
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Fortunately, you are incorrect.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
While the description does say it is done "as two-weapon fighting", the entry then clarifies that "[t]hese attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability)." So you can make all attacks with one weapon, even one wielded in two hands.
As for making attacks with unarmed strikes, you absolutely get to make an extra attack, just like you would with any other combination of weapons. Again, a Monk need not use two weapons while Flurrying.
While you correctly note that THW get 1.5 PA bonus, this happens on both attacks. More importantly, if using one-handed weapons, light weapons, or unarmed strikes (which are light weapons), both attacks get 1xPA bonus, because there is no "off-hand" attack in a Monk's Flurry (just like how the STR damage bonus works).
As for the attack bonuses used for Flurrying, just use the base value in the chart. It does not matter the size of the weapon a Monk uses (whether one-handed, light, or two-handed), but attack bonus is the same - though again TWF is referenced, the rules explicitly tell us that the penalty is -2.
It it does work as expected. Hopefully that helps clarify a bit.
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Okay, well I guess that's what I get for checking to make sure I indeed have the latest copy of the core rulebook, but not checking the errata. So some of the language has changed. It's a blanket -2 on attacks. It still says that you get to make an additional attack as if using two weapon fighting feat. Nothing in the two weapon fighting feat allows you to take an extra attack while using a 2 handed weapon, and if you follow the armor spikes FAQ to apply to all off hand attacks, not just armor spikes and spiked gauntlets, then it doesn't work.
That's the problem though, what they likely meant to say was "you're able to make an additional attack using any combinations of unarmed strikes or monk weapons." End the sentence there, then add "If you take additional attacks, you take a -2 to all attacks, as per the 2 weapon fighting feat."
But that's not how it's phrased. What it says is "he may make an additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat." Because there's a break between attack rolls and as if... that means the "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat." should apply to the whole sentence. So you gain an extra attack as if using the two weapon fighting feat. Which would mean using a 2 handed weapon, you don't gain an additional attack.
Now, it does say that you can make your attacks with any combination of unarmed strikes or weapons with the monk special property. What it doesn't explicitly say is that these attacks bypass any off hand requirements. If it did, that would be great, everything works. But it doesn't, so you can take any combination of 2 weapon fighting attacks with unarmed strikes or monk weapons. Then you add on that unarmed strikes aren't off hand attacks, and you're stuck back at not being able to use them.
Also the section that says that you can use one weapon doesn't say anything about handedness or 2 weapon fighting, so yes you can use the same weapon, but once in the main hand, once in the off hand.
But yes, it's a set -2 to attacks, that much is clear with the errata.
"These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability)."
That means you can make all attacks with one weapon, even a two-handed one. You can use one weapon to make all the attacks, so long as it is a monk special weapon. If it is a THW or a OHW wielded in two hands, you can still use it for all your flurry attacks.
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands."
To be fair, it does mention off-hand weapons here. So one could try to argue that attacks with a second non-UAS or THW weapon should only get .5 PA bonus. However, I don't think anybody plays it that way. The whole point is that whatever a Monk chooses to do weapon-wise while flurrying, it's basically the same.
Also, note the last clause of that last section I quoted: "whether the attacks are made ... with a weapon wielded in both hands". So yes, the rules do contemplate using one weapon wielded in two hands to make all attacks in a flurry. It is expressly allowed.
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I don't know how "These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability)." can be taken to mean that you can use a 2 handed monk weapon to make 2 attacks using 2 weapon fighting. It definitely means you can use a single monk weapon to make both attacks while 2 weapon fighting, but it doesn't make any mention of allowing you to break the 2 metaphorical hands of effort rule to make 2 attacks with one 2 handed weapon.
And where it says "whether the attacks are made..." it makes it clear that you can make a flurry of blows attack with a 2 handed weapon, gaining only 1x strength modifier for damage, it doesn't mention anything about allowing monks to take additional attacks with 2 handed weapons though.
And just to be clear here, I'm not saying that how you're suggesting flurry of blows works isn't how it should be played. That's how I run it. What I'm saying is there is a problem with phrasing and how the ability interacts with the armor spikes/2 handed weapon FAQ.
The point being made is that monks get an exception to the rules while flurrying.