A technical question.

[Zeoh]

OK so, I'm making this character and came across this possible feat option. Here it goes:

My arcanist is being built with 1 level in crossblooded sorcerer as arcane/impossible bloodline with bloodline development arcane exploit. Then I got to reading about dragon disciples and thought about changing arcane over to dragon bloodline. Simple enough.

If I do this however, and decided to use a feat to obtain Eldritch Heritage as arcane bloodline, how does the arcane bond item work? Here are my thoughts:

"Arcane Bloodline
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item."

Now, I know that Arcanists Prepare spells like a wizard but use spell slots like a sorcerer. That being said, in the main page for arcanist in the Spell Casting section it says:

"An arcanist can only cast a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Arcanist under “Spells per Day.” In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.
An arcanist may know any number of spells, but the number she can prepare each day is limited. At 1st level, she can prepare four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells each day. At each new arcanist level, the number of spells she can prepare each day increases, adding new spell levels as indicated on Table: Arcanist Spells Prepared."

So, does this mean that my arcane bond item will cast any arcanist spell I have, including bloodline power spells granted from my crossblooded sorcerer bloodlines being boosted by my arcanist levels through bloodline development?

Yeah... lengthy question. Curious about the answer though. Playing a dragon disciple with all these other capabilities has caught my interest.

[Trekkie90909]

This is more of a rules question than a request for advice.

That said the issue is quite simple; your arcanist has a list of spells known, and your arcane bond can be used to cast any single one of those spells. Think of it as an extra spell slot of indeterminate level (until you choose to use it). The reason your character knows the spell; whether it's from arcanist levels, sorc levels, oracle levels, or plot is irrelevant. Note that ymmv since ultimately this interpretation is up to your GM.

[DonDuckie]

First: you can't multiclass arcanist and sorcerer without houseruling. I always read that as "can't multiclass", my bad :)

The arcane bond doesn't allow you to cast spells from classes other than the one that gave you arcane bond.

Wizards also have the line "A wizard may know any number of spells".

When a class ability refers to spells it refers to spells granted by the same class, in the same fashion as bards and magi ignore ASF chance only when casting bard or magus spells respectively.

And multiclassing casters is rarely worth it, but I'm not entirely sure what your build would look like.

[Trekkie90909]

A) You absolutely can multiclass arcanist and sorcerer, and have been able to since the release of the advanced class guide.

B) There is no rules language restricting which spells you can cast using your arcane bond so long as you either have them in your spellbook (wizard), or know them (sorcerer/arcanist/other).

[Zeoh]

@trekkie - I was thinking along the same lines, but if that's the case and all arcanist spells are considered "Known" then logically a sorcerer multiclass spell slots would be able to make use of the "known" spells. Of course, I guess you could say they're magically segregated known spells in your mind for the purpose of game balance.

@DonDuckie - If you can't take a sorcerer as multiclass Arcanist then that kinda defeats the purpose of the bloodline development arcanist exploit.

Also, I looked for that part about the Wizard wording on spells and didn't see it. I'll look again.

Edit- Ah, donduckie is right about the wizard class including the same "any number of spells known" thing. just looked it up. Even still, I don't see why it wouldn't work the same way in either case since the arcanist uses both practices.

[Zeoh]

Also, I agree with your point trekkie on the rules language for arcane bond since in the description for arcane bloodline it clearly states the difference in how the bond item works compared to a conventional arcane bond item.

[The Archive]

DonDuckie wrote:

First: you can't multiclass arcanist and sorcerer without houseruling.

While this was true during the ACG's playtest, they changed the rules on the book's release to allow hybrid classes to multiclass into their parent classes.

[Trekkie90909]

The point DonDuckie was making about wizard spells is that they too may learn any number of spells. They're still restricted in their actual knowledge of spells by A) the automatic level progression of spells known, and B) the spells they can learn in-game as a function of buying scrolls/tutelage. The same restrictions apply to arcanists, who can know any number of spells, but are usually restricted to a sub-set of the full list(even hard-core completionist players rarely try picking up every spell in the game). Not that it's relevant to the sorc spells as spells known discussion.

More on topic, there is a bit towards the bottom of the bloodline arcana description which you may have missed:

"If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline."

Most classes which grant access to a bloodline (i.e. bloodrager) have some stipulation that the bloodlines must match across classes. The language is not 100% clear above if the arcanist has to treat their levels as sorc levels to stack with those of the original bloodline, or if they are simply allowed that option instead of the usual benefit, so again ymmv.

[DonDuckie]

I fixed the multiclass issue, that's was my misreading.

Arcanist doesn't have spells known like a spontaneous caster (ie. no spells known table), they are prepared casters and use spellbooks, so if they are granted an arcane bond from a sorcerer level that allows them to cast any sorcerer spell known. If granted through exploit, then it should probably work as written in the wizard entry: something like 'any spell in spellbook she is able to cast.'

if both sorcerer multiclass and exploit, then it should stack and be able to cast one spell per day from either class.

I suppose the arcane bond in either case would also be required to be worn/wielded to cast spells without a concentration check.

[Zeoh]

OK, so I guess it's pretty safe to assume the arcane bloodline selection, either through crossblooded or through eldritch heritage, will allow an arcane bond item to cast any arcanist spellbook spell. That works for me, and I thank you guys for the discussion.

Now I just need to figure out the logistics behind dragon combat. I'm very new to pathfinder/d&d and this is going to be my first character and campaign, so I'm basically looking up every little detail as I think of it, trying to learn as much as I can before Thursday.

So in this scenario, I SORT OF have 3 bloodlines (2 crossblooded impossible/draconic) and 1 semi-bloodline for the first power only. (Which I'm sure the bloodline development exploit won't affect)

So, if/when I do become a dragon disciple and enter dragon form, can I still cast spells as regular? How about while flying? Can I activate my arcane bond item while transformed if it's a ring, or would it need to be an arcane bound ioun stone? (assuming it continues to fly around your head while transformed) And does my armor and equip continue to give regular AC values and magical effects while transformed?

Finally, if it turns out I can't cast in dragon form, can I swap out impossible bloodline (mainly wanted it for animate objects and wondrous item crafting cheats at 3rd lvl) for psychic bloodline in order to thought-cast spells from the arcanist spellbook, or would I only be able to thought-cast any sorcerer spells I currently know?

[Trekkie90909]

While in dragon form you will need still spell in order to cast spells with somatic components. Flying does not normally affect this, however if you are attempting extreme aerial maneuvers they might fall under "vigorous," or "violent" movement and thus require concentration checks.

When you transform all your gear melds into your body, so you would not be able to activate the arcane bond, similarly you would not benefit from your armor--certain magical gear is exempt, see the core rule book, chapter 9 magic, spell descriptions, transmutation, polymorph for more information.

The psychic bloodline clearly states that it only affects sorcerer spells and spell-like abilities.

[Zeoh]

@trekkie - The gear melding into your body... does that include slotless items like ioun stones orbiting your head? Or could I activate an arcane bond ioun stone? (though it may not matter if the arcane bond require the somatic components too)

[ErrantPursuit]

I understand the confusion surrounding Bloodline Development
The wording is awkward, for certain.

Bloodline Development:

The arcanist selects one sorcerer bloodline upon taking this exploit. The arcanist gains that bloodline's 1st-level bloodline power as though she were a 1st-level sorcerer. The arcanist must select an ordinary bloodline with this ability, not one altered by an archetype. As a swift action, the arcanist can expend 1 point from her arcane reservoir to bolster her latent nature, allowing her to treat her arcanist level as her sorcerer level for the purpose of using this ability, which lasts for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). She does not gain any other abilities when using this exploit in this way, such as bloodline arcana or those bloodline powers gained at 3rd level or higher. If this ability is used to gain an arcane bond and a bonded item is selected, the arcanist can only use that item to cast spells of a level equal to the level of spell that could be cast by her equivalent sorcerer level (limiting her to 1st level spells unless she spends a point from her arcane reservoir). If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.

Bloodline Development wrote:

The arcanist selects one sorcerer bloodline upon taking this exploit. The arcanist gains that bloodline's 1st-level bloodline power as though she were a 1st-level sorcerer. The arcanist must select an ordinary bloodline with this ability, not one altered by an archetype.[...]If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.

It certainly appears to me that the frequent use of the singular and the specific wording against archetype-modified bloodlines reinforces the point that you cannot have multiple bloodlines all gaining power from this exploit.

To put it in perspective, a Sorcerer has to take a very heavy hit to its effectiveness just to pick up Crossblooded. Arguably it makes the class a far inferior caster than without. (See class guides for details.) To gain that effect without penalty is beyond the scope of a feat equivalent type power.

Finally, Eldritch Heritage does not give you a bloodline. It grants you a specific bloodline power. It costs you two feats and a stat minimum to do so. (Again, reinforcing that Bloodline Development is powerful enough without affecting multiple bloodlines.)

[Zeoh]

You might be right errant, but my DM and I spoke about this already and he decided for this game that "Ordinary Bloodline" basically just means anything that isn't wildblooded. Basically (for this game at least, maybe not following campaign) anything that is selected under the "Sorcerer Bloodlines from Paizo" list from the sorcerer main page is going to be affected by the arcanist exploit, as long as it is granted by a sorcerer class level. (not eldritch heritage)

Who knows, he may change his mind once I start over-complicating my ability/power selections.

I suppose I could balance it slightly by taking draconic and impossible, then only taking all of my selections from impossible. That would still leave me open for dragon disciple and the impossible bloodline would be "unaltered".

[ErrantPursuit]

As with all games, do what works for your table. If it makes your gang happy, then don't worry about the internet peoples.

[Trekkie90909]

Re slotless items: Yes, they're still gear, so they still meld into your body.