If I remember the author of the property said it was an unexpected consequence but that by the rules is allowed and kinda cool
So, if I put the Sharding weapon property on an Amulet of Mighty fists would it apply to every Natural Weapon I have, for example 2 claws and a bite?
Would it work with a Monk's flurry of blows?
Sharding
"The wielder of a sharding weapon can make a special ranged attack with the weapon in place of any melee attack. To do this, the wielder goes through the motion of throwing the weapon without releasing it. The weapon splits off a duplicate of itself that flies as if thrown by the wielder at the intended target. The duplicate gains a range increment of 10 feet for this purpose, but uses the same proficiency and otherwise functions the same as the original weapon. The duplicate vanishes after hitting or missing its target.""Thrown Weapons: The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."
Alright, so what is the numeric range entry for throwing a bite at someone, or a claw?
Zero.
Alright, so you since claws and bites aren't throwable weapons... It is done so with a -4.
Also, since fists and claws are not traditional weapons, they would be considered "improvised". So you would need the Throw anything feat to do so.
Thrown anything
"Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon."
Othwerwise, with all of this in mind, you are looking at -8 to hit penalty to flurry at range, or attack with natural attacks.
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And a Greataxe isn't designed to be thrown either, but I don't think the intention of the ability was to have all attacks take a -4, since A) you're not actually throwing the weapon and B) the Throwing weapon enchant is only +1 so a +2 enchant doing a worse job doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
IUS makes a fist (or elbow, or kick, etc) a traditional weapon.
Natural Attacks are a traditional weapon.
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Those rules are for throwing unmodified weapons. Since it gains a range increment of 10 feet, it now has a numeric range value. Unless you're arguing that weapons with the throwing ability also suffer an arbitrary -4 because the magic weapon doesn't explicitly say that it overwrites a table in a separate section of the book.
Also, what's a "traditional weapon"? I'm not familiar with that rules term, or the associated -4 penalty to hit. In any case, that would be covered by the part of sharding that says "and otherwise functions the same as the original weapon".
So, I believe the -8 penalty should instead be a -0.
EDIT: Succubus ninjas!
Going through the motion of throwing a punch isn't the same as taking off your fist and throwing in. I'd let it work.
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The mental image I had of this ability was of Fighter Kirby. ^_^
And a Greataxe isn't designed to be thrown either, but I don't think the intention of the ability was to have all attacks take a -4, since A) you're not actually throwing the weapon and B) the Throwing weapon enchant is only +1 so a +2 enchant doing a worse job doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
IUS makes a fist (or elbow, or kick, etc) a traditional weapon.
Natural Attacks are a traditional weapon.
"since A) you're not actually throwing the weapon"
One would not pick up a greatsword, and shake it up and down until a new one appeared at range. The sharding property clearly states
" the wielder goes through the motion of throwing the weapon without releasing it"
A greataxe takes a full round to throw. Similar to a shot put player gaining the momentum to throw.
" B) the Throwing weapon enchant is only +1 so a +2 enchant doing a worse job "
On the contrary sharding does a dang good job... when used with throwing weapons.
" Natural Attacks are a traditional weapon.
I was not aware of people throwing fists at a range of 10 feet was a traditional means of range combat.
Those rules are for throwing unmodified weapons. Since it gains a range increment of 10 feet, it now has a numeric range value. Unless you're arguing that weapons with the throwing ability also suffer an arbitrary -4 because the magic weapon doesn't explicitly say that it overwrites a table in a separate section of the book.
Also, what's a "traditional weapon"? I'm not familiar with that rules term, or the associated -4 penalty to hit. In any case, that would be covered by the part of sharding that says "and otherwise functions the same as the original weapon".
So, I believe the -8 penalty should instead be a -0.
EDIT: Succubus ninjas!
a Developer added his opinion on the matter, while stating that it was not an official errata of faq, that a sharding fist would be remedied by the throw anything feat.
@Fernn you seem to be missing the part where the weapon GAINS 10ft. So that fist he is "throwing" now has a range of 10ft; also last time I checked an "unarmed strike" ,which is what a punch is, was a traditional weapon.
My opinion is merely based on A Paizo Developer's interpretation.
I am sorry you feel that is an absurd view point.
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Unfortunately I'm a bit of a masochist.
It may be a full round to actually throw a greataxe but your not doing that, you're going through the motion of doing so and blasting someone with magic, a la The Master Sword from Legend of Zelda. It also calls out specifically "in place of any melee attack", it doesn't say anything about taking a standard or full-round action.
Also Sharding does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING since it says the attack gains a range of 10ft, not that it increases its range by 10. And all throwing weapons already have a minimum of 10ft.
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@Fernn you seem to be missing the part where the weapon GAINS 10ft. So that fist he is "throwing" now has a range of 10ft; also last time I checked an "unarmed strike" ,which is what a punch is, was a traditional weapon.My opinion is merely based on A Paizo Developer's interpretation.
I am sorry you feel that is an absurd view point.
Link plz and Thankies.
Link plz and Thankies.@Fernn you seem to be missing the part where the weapon GAINS 10ft. So that fist he is "throwing" now has a range of 10ft; also last time I checked an "unarmed strike" ,which is what a punch is, was a traditional weapon.My opinion is merely based on A Paizo Developer's interpretation.
I am sorry you feel that is an absurd view point.
Proof? Other then "I say this developer says I'm right". My proof is in the wording of the ability.Thank you Kalindlara after this I am done
I had stated before in this thread:
"a Developer added his opinion on the matter, while stating that it was not an official errata of faq, that a sharding fist would be remedied by the throw anything feat." (control+F this thread)
The actual thread in question was:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy9hdy/discuss&page=11?Pathfinder-Player-Co mpanion-Weapon-Masters-Handbook#tabs"
Where Owen K. C. Stephens said:
"Note that I'm not making a FAQ or errata statement, just talking about my interpretation.
An amulet of mighty fists can be augmented with weapon special abilities that affect melee weapons.
Sharding is a weapon property that affects melee properties.
So you can put sharding on an amulet of mighty fists.
This means you can make a special ranged attack in place of melee attack. By throwing a duplicate fist. That may look weird, but anyone who has played fighting video games can envision it, I'm sure.
It's worth noting that when you throw a greatsword, you're throwing an improvised weapon unless you have Throw Anything or a similar ability. The same is true of fists. A fist is not a thrown weapon, so when you throw one, it's an improvised weapon. We know this because the ability says "as if thrown by the wielder."
Of course, Throw Anything fixes a lot of that."
Unfortunately I'm a bit of a masochist.
It may be a full round to actually throw a greataxe but your not doing that, you're going through the motion of doing so and blasting someone with magic, a la The Master Sword from Legend of Zelda. It also calls out specifically "in place of any melee attack", it doesn't say anything about taking a standard or full-round action.
Also Sharding does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING since it says the attack gains a range of 10ft, not that it increases its range by 10. And all throwing weapons already have a minimum of 10ft.
Also, I feel that creating a duplicate of a weapon you are throwing, instead of actually throwing a weapon would not constitute as
" ABSOLUTE NOTHING "
But hey, if you think giving that quality to a throwing weapon is useless, to each his own.
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Unfortunately I'm a bit of a masochist.
It may be a full round to actually throw a greataxe but your not doing that, you're going through the motion of doing so and blasting someone with magic, a la The Master Sword from Legend of Zelda. It also calls out specifically "in place of any melee attack", it doesn't say anything about taking a standard or full-round action.
Also Sharding does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING since it says the attack gains a range of 10ft, not that it increases its range by 10. And all throwing weapons already have a minimum of 10ft.
Also, I feel that creating a duplicate of a weapon you are throwing, instead of actually throwing a weapon would not constitute as
" ABSOLUTE NOTHING "
But hey, if you think giving that quality to a throwing weapon is useless, to each his own.
It is when Returning is only a +1 enchant and doesn't limit the range that you can throw the weapon.
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Link plz and Thankies.@Fernn you seem to be missing the part where the weapon GAINS 10ft. So that fist he is "throwing" now has a range of 10ft; also last time I checked an "unarmed strike" ,which is what a punch is, was a traditional weapon.My opinion is merely based on A Paizo Developer's interpretation.
I am sorry you feel that is an absurd view point.
Proof? Other then "I say this developer says I'm right". My proof is in the wording of the ability.Thank you Kalindlara after this I am doneI had stated before in this thread:
"a Developer added his opinion on the matter, while stating that it was not an official errata of faq, that a sharding fist would be remedied by the throw anything feat." (control+F this thread)
The actual thread in question was:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy9hdy/discuss&page=11?Pathfinder-Player-Co mpanion-Weapon-Masters-Handbook#tabs"
Where Owen K. C. Stephens said:
"Note that I'm not making a FAQ or errata statement, just talking about my interpretation.
An amulet of mighty fists can be augmented with weapon special abilities that affect melee weapons.
Sharding is a weapon property that affects melee properties.
So you can put sharding on an amulet of mighty fists.
This means you can make a special ranged attack in place of melee attack. By throwing a duplicate fist. That may look weird, but anyone who has played fighting video games can envision it, I'm sure.
It's worth noting that when you throw a greatsword, you're throwing an improvised weapon unless you have Throw Anything or a similar ability. The same is true of fists. A fist is not a thrown weapon, so when you throw one, it's an improvised weapon. We know this because the ability says "as if thrown by the wielder."
Of course, Throw Anything fixes a lot of that."
I am thankful that Owen prefaced his statement by stating it was not a FaQ or Errata but his own interpretation and I tend to agree with a lot of his posts and interpretations.
But here I shall respectively disagree that you need a feat in order to make the enchant work. You don't need it for the Throwing (a +1 bonus) so I don't see why you would need it for Sharding (a +2).
It is when Returning is only a +1 enchant and doesn't limit the range that you can throw the weapon.Unfortunately I'm a bit of a masochist.
It may be a full round to actually throw a greataxe but your not doing that, you're going through the motion of doing so and blasting someone with magic, a la The Master Sword from Legend of Zelda. It also calls out specifically "in place of any melee attack", it doesn't say anything about taking a standard or full-round action.
Also Sharding does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING since it says the attack gains a range of 10ft, not that it increases its range by 10. And all throwing weapons already have a minimum of 10ft.
Also, I feel that creating a duplicate of a weapon you are throwing, instead of actually throwing a weapon would not constitute as
" ABSOLUTE NOTHING "
But hey, if you think giving that quality to a throwing weapon is useless, to each his own.
Just to quote you then...
"It also calls out specifically "in place of any melee attack", it doesn't say anything about taking a standard or full-round action."
can you take iritative attacks with a thrown returning greatsword?
Also, once you throw a returning weapon
"It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn)"
You are still left without a weapon until your right before your next turn.
Plus, a 10 foot range is the range increment.
" A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments."
In one game, I used true strike, then threw a dagger an almost impossible distance(50 feet) to knick a foe for like 2 damage. It was cool, not entirely effective, but it was possible.
I am thankful that Owen prefaced his statement by stating it was not a FaQ...Link plz and Thankies.@Fernn you seem to be missing the part where the weapon GAINS 10ft. So that fist he is "throwing" now has a range of 10ft; also last time I checked an "unarmed strike" ,which is what a punch is, was a traditional weapon.My opinion is merely based on A Paizo Developer's interpretation.
I am sorry you feel that is an absurd view point.
Proof? Other then "I say this developer says I'm right". My proof is in the wording of the ability.Thank you Kalindlara after this I am doneI had stated before in this thread:
"a Developer added his opinion on the matter, while stating that it was not an official errata of faq, that a sharding fist would be remedied by the throw anything feat." (control+F this thread)
The actual thread in question was:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy9hdy/discuss&page=11?Pathfinder-Player-Co mpanion-Weapon-Masters-Handbook#tabs"
Where Owen K. C. Stephens said:
"Note that I'm not making a FAQ or errata statement, just talking about my interpretation.
An amulet of mighty fists can be augmented with weapon special abilities that affect melee weapons.
Sharding is a weapon property that affects melee properties.
So you can put sharding on an amulet of mighty fists.
This means you can make a special ranged attack in place of melee attack. By throwing a duplicate fist. That may look weird, but anyone who has played fighting video games can envision it, I'm sure.
It's worth noting that when you throw a greatsword, you're throwing an improvised weapon unless you have Throw Anything or a similar ability. The same is true of fists. A fist is not a thrown weapon, so when you throw one, it's an improvised weapon. We know this because the ability says "as if thrown by the wielder."
Of course, Throw Anything fixes a lot of that."
That is fine interpretation as well. I have stated my opinions as well as some wording from rulings, and because of such I cannot say that I am with certainty 100% right.
I also noted that one of the major parts of my reasoning was a developer's point of view.
If this was a simple no brainer question, I fail to see why a thread devoted to this question was necessary.
Ultimately, if you are unswayed by other people's opinions or already have predisposed notions on this, then there is of course nothing I can do.
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It is when Returning is only a +1 enchant and doesn't limit the range that you can throw the weapon.Unfortunately I'm a bit of a masochist.
It may be a full round to actually throw a greataxe but your not doing that, you're going through the motion of doing so and blasting someone with magic, a la The Master Sword from Legend of Zelda. It also calls out specifically "in place of any melee attack", it doesn't say anything about taking a standard or full-round action.
Also Sharding does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING since it says the attack gains a range of 10ft, not that it increases its range by 10. And all throwing weapons already have a minimum of 10ft.
Also, I feel that creating a duplicate of a weapon you are throwing, instead of actually throwing a weapon would not constitute as
" ABSOLUTE NOTHING "
But hey, if you think giving that quality to a throwing weapon is useless, to each his own.
Just to quote you then...
"It also calls out specifically "in place of any melee attack", it doesn't say anything about taking a standard or full-round action."
can you take iritative attacks with a thrown returning greatsword?
Also, once you throw a returning weapon
"It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn)"You are still left without a weapon until your right before your next turn.
Plus, a 10 foot range is the range increment.
" A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments."In one game, I used true strike, then threw a dagger an almost impossible distance(50 feet) to knick a foe for like 2 damage. It was cool, not entirely effective, but it was possible.
Huh, I've been misinformed in how Returning works then, I was under the impression you could get multiple attacks with it.
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That is fine interpretation as well. I have stated my opinions as well as some wording from rulings, and because of such I cannot say that I am with certainty 100% right.
I also noted that one of the major parts of my reasoning was a developer's point of view.
If this was a simple no brainer question, I fail to see why a thread devoted to this question was necessary.
Ultimately, if you are unswayed by other people's opinions or already have predisposed notions on this, then there is of course.
Because this wasn't a no-brainer question. You have an interpretation, I have an interpretation, and thus a debate ensued.
Either one side switches to the other, a new consensus is reached, or neither side changes. We had a debate, and happened to reach ending C.
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The first time I read the thread title, I thought it said "sharting" and I giggled to myself in my office.
I have nothing to add. Carry on.
Huh, I've been misinformed in how Returning works then, I was under the impression you could get multiple stacks with it.It is when Returning is only a +1 enchant and doesn't limit the range that you can throw the weapon.Unfortunately I'm a bit of a masochist.
It may be a full round to actually throw a greataxe but your not doing that, you're going through the motion of doing so and blasting someone with magic, a la The Master Sword from Legend of Zelda. It also calls out specifically "in place of any melee attack", it doesn't say anything about taking a standard or full-round action.
Also Sharding does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING since it says the attack gains a range of 10ft, not that it increases its range by 10. And all throwing weapons already have a minimum of 10ft.
Also, I feel that creating a duplicate of a weapon you are throwing, instead of actually throwing a weapon would not constitute as
" ABSOLUTE NOTHING "
But hey, if you think giving that quality to a throwing weapon is useless, to each his own.
Just to quote you then...
"It also calls out specifically "in place of any melee attack", it doesn't say anything about taking a standard or full-round action."
can you take iritative attacks with a thrown returning greatsword?
Also, once you throw a returning weapon
"It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn)"You are still left without a weapon until your right before your next turn.
Plus, a 10 foot range is the range increment.
" A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments."In one game, I used true strike, then threw a dagger an almost impossible distance(50 feet) to knick a foe for like 2 damage. It was cool, not entirely effective, but it was possible.
I feel that returning was faster in 3.5. I had always thought it was instatneous. The only reason I found out it wasn't was because in Rise of the runelords, there was a flying mini boss with a returning dagger.
Alteranatively, you could get multiple returning weapons thrown each round, which by itself would be a very scary looking situations with daggers flying all over the place.@KingOfAnything
As i said
"I also noted that one of the major parts of my reasoning was a developer's point of view."
Obviously if you find his reasoning to be without merit (usually because of responding to billions of questions on the spot), then by extension I can be wrong as well( I am also of the Human Subtype)