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Please bear in mind I've played in exactly *one* scenario with Grand Master Torch, and the character I've played was a loyal servant of the Grand Lodge who was hearing bad things about Torch's character from other party members.
Despite this, he seemed a decent enough person and was intelligent (as well as the ONLY person in play to *ever* bathe!).
Would it be possible to at some point have a reputational revival of him for the campaign? Perhaps not as a VC, but as a potentially positive influence for the Society once more?
There's arguments back and forth to his character, but he sounds like an interesting fellow that could bring a lot to Society play, and help flesh out things a bit more?
Thank you very much for your time!
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** spoiler omitted **Please bear in mind I've played in exactly *one* scenario with Grand Master TorchWhich one?
That's probably a good current example. You'll note
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So, right now, he is a cameo NPC, as anything more would be a bad thing, due to causing PvP in many parties.
Just to emphasize this, LOTS of characters want to kill him. In a couple of scenarios I've asked at the meta level if I can kill Torch, knowing full well that it would cost at least 1 prestige (likely more, depending on the scenario). If any players object I don't push it at all but if they all agreed I absolutely would take a 0 XP/0 Prestige/0 Gold chronicle just for the sheer joy in killing him (and in most cases it wouldn't actually be that bad).
I'm NOT alone in how much some of my characters hate him and in how much I the player dislike what Paizo did with him.
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Due to certain actions later in the Destiny of the Sands series, I'd be surprised to see him come back, and if he did members of at least one faction would want his head.
Due to certain actions before the Destiny of the Sands series, I would not be surprised if certain Pathfinders already wanted his head.
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Well, to fair, it looks like the Decemvirate are at least partially responsible for the creation of 'Torch'... after all, his current incarnation really only came about because the Society screwed him over, and then he decided to do the same thing to them as well, but also to make a slightly snarky career out of it...
The other faction heads, after all, aren't exactly squeaky clean.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg
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If you play the rest of the series you should find out yet more interesting things about him.
Playing Destiny of the Sands won't do so much about that. You'd have to run the series. I see no easy way for the PCs to learn the info about GMT presented in the sidebars.
I don't understand why people hate the guy so much. I have one ex-Shadow Lodge character who disllikes GMT's actions only because GMT left him with an incompetent human idiot. On the other hand, that character is one of the few who want Guaril Karela dead. But then, that character only joined the Shadow Lodge because GMT was the faction leader he disliked the least.
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Well, to fair, it looks like the Decemvirate are at least partially responsible for the creation of 'Torch'... after all, his current incarnation really only came about because the Society screwed him over, and then he decided to do the same thing to them as well, but also to make a slightly snarky career out of it...
The other faction heads, after all, aren't exactly squeaky clean.
** spoiler omitted **
Huh... Which scenario are you talking about because the only one I can think of that establishes this says otherwise? I mean the guy's an ass yes but still I remember it for other reasons.
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I would like to chime in on ol' Torchies side. He seems to have gotten a bit of a raw deal from the way many judges ran him at early tables. The first scenario he appears in...
Silent Tide interaction with GMT:
After requesting an audience, the PCs are brought before the Grandmaster,
a charming, soft-spoken man, but one whose entire body is covered in horrible burn scars.
Grandmaster Torch (N male human bardic sage 6/rogue 5) lounges in a shallow pool nursing his scars while two servants gently recycle the water over his charred form. His two heavily armored, half-orc bodyguards remain close at hand. After a brief introduction, Grandmaster Torch concedes he does in fact know where the upstart Nessian has carved out his new base of operations. Torch is reluctant to sell the information, and the price to rat out a potential future underworld leader of Absalom is steep indeed: 6,000 gp, an amount the PCs are unlikely to be able to afford.
If the PCs attempt to bargain, flatter, or trick Grandmaster Torch, roleplay the session accordingly, permitting them to make any social skill checks they wish to attempt. They might also pique his interest if they attempt to sell him [redacted] from Act 2. If the PCs succeed in amusing or impressing Grandmaster Torch, or perhaps explain why for the good of Absalom he really ought to help them, he relents on his pricing and offers an alternate solution:
"I’ve recently come into possession of a series of safes. Unfortunately, the safecracker I employed has turned out to be quite useless. If you can coax even three of the five safes open, I could be persuaded to disclose Nessian’s location and dispense with my regular fee entirely. These chests are remarkably unique and I have the foreboding suspicion that, in this case, the receptacles just might be worth more than their contents, so I’d rather you didn’t smash them open. Oh! One more thing: if my diviner warns me you have crossed me and stolen the contents, there will be repercussions."
let us examine the above.
The PCs need information, so they go to an information broker. He has the information - and the normal price is high (above what someone in this tier will have, but not really unreasonable for an 11th level guy - which is what GMT is. Price is less than the GP earned in one scenario for a PC of his level.
But wait - there are other options presented. You can talk him out of the information. With any social skill you wish to use. And there is no DC set, so whatever you try is likely to work (depending on the whim of the Judge).
PC#1 "I try Intimidate - I've got a 25. I point out we are with the Pathfinders, and if he doesn't fork over what we, it could go bad for his business in the future. Does he tell us?"
PC#2 "I'll try Diplomacy - I've got a 20... I appeal to his pride - and the fact that this will get into a Pathfinder Chronicle, he'll be getting LOTS of free publicity. Does he tell us?"
PC#3 "I'll use Bluff - with a 27! ... I point out that I'm with the Lord Mayors office, and he needs to do this or we'll send inspectors down to check on his perrmits. so he tells us right?"
PC#4 (a Paladin) "I just tell him that we are trying to save the City from an invasion of undead - some of whom are already being seen in the Puddles district above. I appeal to his Civic Pride... Does that work?"
all of the above actually work to net the PCs the ability to get the answer. And just as a "face saving" move, he hands the PCs a set of easy puzzles to solve - so that rumors of what a big softy he is don't get spread around. And even then the PCs only have to get 60% of the puzzles solved! Sheesh!
GMT: "Wow, you solved this 'really hard task'! (wink-wink) So I guess you won the prize! Here's the Information (list price 6K gp) - and if you got more of the puzzles I'll throw in some extra (over cap) gold!"
Yeah - in this one GMT comes across as about 1/2 game show host for "Let's Make a Deal"
and yet many people after playing this, get the impression that he is "screwing over the PCs"... sorry I don't see it.
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Well, to fair, it looks like the Decemvirate are at least partially responsible for the creation of 'Torch'... after all, his current incarnation really only came about because the Society screwed him over, and then he decided to do the same thing to them as well, but also to make a slightly snarky career out of it...
The other faction heads, after all, aren't exactly squeaky clean.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm sorry, I have played and run that series, and, IMO, GMT was the creation of an adventuring group who ignored several of the Society's tenets. Explore! Report! Cooperate!
At some point, if your group leader never tells you anything, your group is in trouble. That, however, is an issue internal to the group, not something that you should blame your employer for.
"Okay, guys, we are leaving Eto for an undisclosed destination. I can't really tell you anything about the place, however, as is obvious, we are going to be travelling through the Osirian desert. Some of the aspects common to deserts are heat and dryness, so pack plenty of supplies, including water. And, of course, Osiria is a place deeply into ancestor worship, and tends to wind up with a lot of undead roaming around, due to all those violated tombs. So, maybe, bringing along some stuff to help deal with the restless dead might not be a bad idea."
Sorry, GMT has always come off as being a little ... isolated from reality, even as far back as Silent Tide. That isolation and resulting disconnection is why I have no problems seeing him doing what he did in that scenario. And, also, why he has trouble with some basic cause-and-effect type stuff.
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At some point, if your group leader never tells you anything, your group is in trouble. That, however, is an issue internal to the group, not something that you should blame your employer for.
"If the Osirians discover your purpose, we can’t have it traced back to the Society. Once you go in, you’re on your own. Burn this letter and the other documents once you’ve memorized them, and keep the information they conveyed to yourself."
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** spoiler omitted **At some point, if your group leader never tells you anything, your group is in trouble. That, however, is an issue internal to the group, not something that you should blame your employer for.
Of course, the leader of the group personally violated one of the basic rules of exploring ancient ruins: Never split the party
Another party member was left isolated from the rest of the party, again, in violation of the same, basic rule. Other than GMT, he was probably the party member who survived longest.
And, of course, abandoning your party members is just a variation of that, as the leader got into an argument with his party, then ran away on them.
It is a wonder, with the way that group worked together, that they made it through the desert...
Oddly, given the way things work, it is a wonder that they didn't set the trap off before they got to the final room, rather than when running away from the final room. Maybe the Rogue activated the trap, rather than deactivated it?
And, of course, the question comes up as to [why Ven Lorovox left a healthy party member behind when he fled the scene...[spoiler]
[spoiler=Way to give out the background to the players]As to giving the players the background, the GM, when I played it, used the sarcophagus to provide that info. Helped that the questions we asked were about what had happened to them, so...
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** spoiler omitted **
GMT has too many apologists who ignore every time he has screwed over individual Pathfinders and/or the whole of the Pathfinder Society.
Then again, due to GMT, I have had at least one PC die. And it wasn't even the real GMT.
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Torchie boy was played as an evil mastermind by so many GM's that it stuck. I've been going over his appearances and seriously, pre-Rivalry's End, only Silent Tide gives him that vibe. And there's nothing in the plot or the writing of that intro that bespokes nefariousness, it's just the introduction's milieu and the tasks he asks that transform a broken ex-Pathfinder into a peculiarly well-informed creep.
Many Fortune's baths scene also reminds me of some Bond movie. It's the little things.
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Torchie boy was played as an evil mastermind by so many GM's that it stuck.
This is absolutely true. I've watched players come off with a bad impression of an NPC just because I roleplayed them in a certain manner. Much of the hate a lot of NPCs get comes from their potrayal and not their actions. Some of them get entirely deserved hatred (Hamshanks is a right arse in the few times I've seen him.) while the rest is just miscommunication.