1. They most definitely are that impressive. Kelesh is the largest nation in the world, stretching from Casmaron to the Inner sea, and Vudra is among the oldest nations in the world and home to some of the greatest warriors and sages on Golarion.
2. Vudra has no real need for expansion, and Kelesh has much more lucrative territory than the inner sea, so they don't need it.
3. I indeed do enjoy not being in the "greatest nation on the planet." It definitely reinforces the fact that in the medieval and renaissance period the European nations were not the most powerful.
I have only read a portion of the small amount of Vudra and Kelesh content out there. The content seems to make them out to be the two greatest nations on the continent and comparable to the Old Taldor and Cheliax empires that dominated the inner sea region. I have a few random questions...
1) Are they that impressive or is it a lack of material on the region hides their divisions (when a resident of Almas says Vudra is an impressive nation does a native Vudran say the Inner sea is an impressive nation)?
2) Why don't they just run over the nations of the Inner Sea?
3) Often in fantasy RPGs, the setting would has stronger ties to "the greatest nation on the planet". Do you like that it may be set in one of the "weaker" areas?
1)Kelesh certainly is...Vudra is powerful but we don't really know much about it and so it's possibly more decentralized than Kelesh (at least that is the feeling I get).
2)Kelesh has in the past, taking over parts of Northern Garund and warring with Taldor. They don't appear to be in an expansionist phase right now but that could just be a temporary state. Vudra is way more distant from the inner sea and I would think it would be hard for them to maintain mainland holdings, especially with Kelesh to the the north.
3) Is it? seems in many fantasy setting/rpgs a big empire is present somewhere, but is often portrayed as antagonistic and/or exotic, and so isn't the focal point and origin for characters.
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1) Are they that impressive or is it a lack of material on the region hides their divisions (when a resident of Almas says Vudra is an impressive nation does a native Vudran say the Inner sea is an impressive nation)?
The Kelesh Empire is definitely a massive political entity. With Qadira as Satrapy being roughly on par with most of the other organized Inner Sea nations and the sheer geographic scope of the Kelesh Empire, safe to say they're a pretty big deal.
Vudra seems to be more of a cultural region than an outright Empire, but capable of acting with more concert than Avistan or Garund... or they have organized factions that can.
2) Why don't they just run over the nations of the Inner Sea?
They're busy running their already-gigantic Empire and managing their vassal states? They're busy dealing with other external problems on other borders? They don't think it's worth the hassle? They just don't happen to want to?
Real-world history includes numerous cases of mighty, conquering empires deciding, "eh, good enough." Granted, that's usually in response to some setback or another... but they've had those! Taldor's beef with Qadira is more a proxy war than anything else, one Taldor has not officially lost yet.
3) Often in fantasy RPGs, the setting would has stronger ties to "the greatest nation on the planet". Do you like that it may be set in one of the "weaker" areas?
As others have noted, "the greatest nation on the planet" is often either evil or collapsed. In Dragonlance, no modern state came close to the shattered power of pre-Cataclysm Istar. In Dark Sun, Tyr was by no means the most powerful City-State, despite being the nucleus of thehow that setting was explored. In Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, unified nations of surpassing power were seldom, if ever,the focus of the heroic side of things.
In keeping with "roughly medieval" as the cultural level, a lot of fantasy RPGs don't really have powerful nation-states at all.
The Kelesh Empire is basically the Caliphate in its prime; it makes the Inner Sea powers look like chumps in comparison, really. I do hope we get an AP focused on that area at some point, it's a very interesting setting to explore. I would definitely play an AP where they make a serious push into the Inner Sea.
The Kelesh Empire is basically the Caliphate in its prime; it makes the Inner Sea powers look like chumps in comparison, really. I do hope we get an AP focused on that area at some point, it's a very interesting setting to explore. I would definitely play an AP where they make a serious push into the Inner Sea.
I hope that Paizo takes exceedingly GREAT cautions with that to prevent it from falling into the trap of 'Oh, desert place, let's use desert stereotypes to save word count' when they do address that.
There is a LOT that could be covered there, almost an entire campaign and world setting in and of itself, from what it looks like?
Paizo does a pretty great job giving other cultures the respect they deserve from what I've seen so I wouldn't worry about that too much.
I too would like more APs that take place/start outside the Inner Sea
IN forgotten Realms, both Mulhorand and Calimshan used to control vast Empires (Multhorand basically all of Thay and most of the southern shores of the sea there, while Calimshan's territories once extended all the way up to Amn.
They are also shadows of their former selves.
The 'China' of Golarion is splintered into different regions paying homage to different portions of the its history, and that of Japan.
'Vudra' being a nation is probably lip service to the word, if the maharajahs are any indication. Still, it is OLD, and unlike modern India, shares a single language. That has a power all its own.
==Aelryinth
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Kelesh is a large, ancient, and extremely powerful empire. It's not a nation: it's a governing body that contains many nations and cultures. (As I hinted at in Inner Sea Races, the "Keleshite" designation is less an ethnicity like Kellids or Varisians and closer to "Tian" -- which is to say, it's not monolithic, and has more to do with Avistani not really understanding the different cultures and peoples and lumping them all into a single designation that basically equates to "I dunno, they're from Over There.")
Kelesh itself has a lot of desert, but it also has jungles, grasslands, temperate forests, and other climates, and cultures that developed within them. The Imperial Family and a lot of the nobility originate from desert tribes, and a lot of citizens imitate some of their practices and dress because they're seen as socially prestigious, which is why Keleshites are seen as "desert people" in Avistan.
Vudra is also extremely large and potentially powerful (and probably better defined as an empire than as a nation), but it's a collection of a ton of different smaller nations and while the maharajah is the supreme ruler, its administration is less tight than Kelesh's -- a mahajanapada is more independent than a satrapy.
Vudra hasn't conquered the world because A) overall they're not inclined to and B) they're not particularly centralized.
Kelesh hasn't conquered the world because after they got rich enough, they decided that instead of engaging in military conquest, they'd try economic/cultural conquest instead. (Join up, get free shipping on luxury goods from around the world!) They're confident that the quality of life the Empire provides its citizens will lure the rest of the world under their rule eventually. They don't need to force it. Qadira feels differently, of course.
Isn't the Pit of Gormuz inside the Kelesh Empire?
Having a god-powered infinite devil Spawn machine inside your borders probably alters your military priorities a bit.
Edit: Though it's also a pretty good indication of its capabilities if the Kelesh Empire's military is (mostly) successfully keeping the Pit contained.
Also - Tian Xia's an amalgamation of eastern Asia and Japan, and it's also huge.
For example, Minkai, the Golarion analogue of Japan, has about the same landmass as the continental US (excluding Alaska, of course). (As opposed to actual Japan only being about the size of California.)
Which, if I'm not completely off on scale, means Minkai alone is bigger than the entirety of Avistan.
I remember being kind of floored in our Jade Regent game when the scale difference between the Tian Xia map and the Inner Sea map finally clicked.
Being big doesn't equal being unstoppable: keeping up with the caliphate comparison, after the fall of Bizantium the ottomans tried to move further west and swallow Europe and Russia. They made some advances but ultimately suffered some crippling defeats that halted their military gains. They kept pushing until the 1700s and the siege of Vienna, then they were defeated and slowly sent back defeat after defeat until the early 1900s when the caliphate itself crumbled.
That's to point out how even at the zenit of its power the caliphate didn't really have the power to conquer Europe. The same could be said about the persian empire and the Greek city states of ancient times. Rome itself during what was probably the height of its power failed to truly defeat the parthian empire (they expanded through its borders but were ultimately repulsed during emperor Trajan's time).
So while Kelesh is certainly a formidable entity assuming it can conquer the whole Inner Sea region if only it wished so it's probably inaccurate even taking in account we are dealing with a fantasy setting and not reality. Taldor, for one is still described as having formidable military might despite being in decline and would not be easy to defeat.
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Kelesh is a large, ancient, and extremely powerful empire. It's not a nation: it's a governing body that contains many nations and cultures. (As I hinted at in Inner Sea Races, the "Keleshite" designation is less an ethnicity like Kellids or Varisians and closer to "Tian" -- which is to say, it's not monolithic, and has more to do with Avistani not really understanding the different cultures and peoples and lumping them all into a single designation that basically equates to "I dunno, they're from Over There.")
Kelesh itself has a lot of desert, but it also has jungles, grasslands, temperate forests, and other climates, and cultures that developed within them. The Imperial Family and a lot of the nobility originate from desert tribes, and a lot of citizens imitate some of their practices and dress because they're seen as socially prestigious, which is why Keleshites are seen as "desert people" in Avistan.
Vudra is also extremely large and potentially powerful (and probably better defined as an empire than as a nation), but it's a collection of a ton of different smaller nations and while the maharajah is the supreme ruler, its administration is less tight than Kelesh's -- a mahajanapada is more independent than a satrapy.
Vudra hasn't conquered the world because A) overall they're not inclined to and B) they're not particularly centralized.
Kelesh hasn't conquered the world because after they got rich enough, they decided that instead of engaging in military conquest, they'd try economic/cultural conquest instead. (Join up, get free shipping on luxury goods from around the world!) They're confident that the quality of life the Empire provides its citizens will lure the rest of the world under their rule eventually. They don't need to force it. Qadira feels differently, of course.
Thank you for this Jessica!
Taldor can definitely handle Qadira--they're fairly evenly matched, which is why they've been skirmishing for millennia without either being able to bring down the other. I don't think Taldor could handle Kelesh if the Empire got involved directly. At the height of its power, maybe, assuming the war were fought in Avistan, but it's fallen a long way since then. (Qadira practically took its capital, and it was only able to save itself at the expense of losing all of Cheliax.)
The Empire of Kelesh as a whole would likely be fairly effective at toppling governments in Avistan if it committed to doing so, but I don't think it would be able to maintain a hold over the Inner Sea region if it attempted a military conquest, in part because Avistan doesn't have the infrastructure Keleshites are used to depending on.
(And they don't necessarily get the Inner Sea region -- just as people in the Inner Sea talk about "Keleshites" like they're monolithic, if you head over to Kelesh, you'll hear them talking about "Avistani." Even in Qadira, which is an Inner Sea nation, a lot of people have trouble telling Kellids, Ulfens, and Shoanti apart.)
Which is why it isn't trying to take over, and attempts to keep Qadira on a tight leash.
Isn't the Pit of Gormuz inside the Kelesh Empire?
Having a god-powered infinite
devilSpawn machine inside your borders probably alters your military priorities a bit.Edit: Though it's also a pretty good indication of its capabilities if the Kelesh Empire's military is (mostly) successfully keeping the Pit contained.
They've basically quarantined it. And they've been fortunate in that the Tarrasque and Ulunat both charged off in the direction of Avistan and Garund rather than going south and smashing things in Kelesh.
Also - Tian Xia's an amalgamation of eastern Asia and Japan, and it's also huge.
For example, Minkai, the Golarion analogue of Japan, has about the same landmass as the continental US (excluding Alaska, of course). (As opposed to actual Japan only being about the size of California.)
Which, if I'm not completely off on scale, means Minkai alone is bigger than the entirety of Avistan.
I remember being kind of floored in our Jade Regent game when the scale difference between the Tian Xia map and the Inner Sea map finally clicked.
Yup. Casmaron's also many times the size of Avistan. The Inner Sea is a relatively tiny area. :-)
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They've basically quarantined it. And they've been fortunate in that the Tarrasque and Ulunat both charged off in the direction of Avistan and Garund rather than going south and smashing things in Kelesh.Isn't the Pit of Gormuz inside the Kelesh Empire?
Having a god-powered infinite
devilSpawn machine inside your borders probably alters your military priorities a bit.Edit: Though it's also a pretty good indication of its capabilities if the Kelesh Empire's military is (mostly) successfully keeping the Pit contained.
And that the one that did go south, Kothogaz the Unyielding, went for Vudra instead. ^_^
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Also, since I'm here, I have a tangentially-related question...
I added a villainous NPC to my Wrath of the Righteous game: a former Keleshite princess from a powerful family of genie-binders who turned from her family's ways and pledged herself to Nurgal (demon lord of the sun and warfare).
Does anyone know what a appropriate family name for such a character would be? I'd like something both proper for the setting and reasonably culturally-sensitive. Plus, I may make more use of that family...
Well, what specific real-world culture underpinned your character's basic concept?
Kelesh seems to feel more First Caliphate than Ottoman Empire, but at its size, really, almost anything is possible...
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Well, what specific real-world culture underpinned your character's basic concept?
"From the Keleshite empire". That's all I had. ^_^
One of the PCs is Taldan, with a chip on her shoulder about that entire region. The idea started from there. The NPC is from a Sarenrae-heavy desert culture, though, and a genie-heavy one. So, probably something Aladdin-ish... unless someone has an idea that would make things more interesting.
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The biggest real-world influence on Kelesh itself is probably the Persian Empire (Achaemenids), though lack of a style bible on it has led a lot of writers to go more Arabic with names, but then again, most of those characters have been Qadiran.
Keleshite culture is matrilineal, so a lot of them likely use a first name followed by a matronymic.