Alright, so I want to create a simple fighter archetype that's basically a regular warrior/soldier/whatever who's been stricken by a mysterious curse which grants access to a few supernatural powers.
Here's my current setup:
1. Oracle curse (fighter level = effective oracle level) replaces 1st-level bonus feat.
2. Save bonus against hexes and curses replaces bravery.
3. Witch hexes (fighter level = effective witch level) replaces bonus feats from 2nd level and onwards. Can select major hexes starting at 12th and grand hexes starting at 20th level.
4. Ability to cast bestow curse once per day as SLA (fighter level = caster level, Int-based DC) replaces weapon training 1. WP 2, 3 and 4 replaced by additional daily use of this ability.
Leave armor training as is.
Does this seem balanced? I realize it's more powerful than most other fighter archetypes, but I'm thinking more in comparison to like a paladin, ranger or barbarian/bloodrager?
Alternate way of going about it, which might be more in line with existing archetypes, would be to still have the oracle curse replace the 1st-level bonus feat, but then leave the rest of the bonus feats in. Instead, armor training is replaced by witch hexes at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th. Major hexes at 11th and grand hexes at 19th.
Cheers,
- Gears
At 1st level, many of the curse offer absolutely no benefit. I don't losing the fear is s good choice. Many curses add spells to your spell list. Also useless. I like the concept, but you might need to customize each curse for a non-spellcaster.
@RedDingo: Thanks for the suggestion. I'm mostly looking to tweak the mechanical aspects of the archetype, though. I'm not writing up any lore or fluff for it.
@Ciaran: Hmm. How about the curse instead replaces armor training, even though you gain it at 1st level? Or possibly just delays armor training to 7th level? If you pick a curse that would normally add spells to your spell list, you can use your bestow curse SLA to cast one of those spells instead, provided the spell's level is equal to or lesser than 1 + 1/3 your class level?
Actually, come to think of it, the way curses scale, it would probably make more sense to have the curse replace weapon training. Then the SLA ability could replace armor training, granting you access to a single witch spell with the curse descriptor with a spell level equal to or lesser than 1 + 1/3 your class level. This would be castable once per day at 3rd level, additional time per day at 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th. At each of these intervals, you also get to add another [curse] spell to your options, or you can add one of the spells granted by your oracle's curse.
Would either of those two maybe work?
I think it's actually grossly underpowered. You have a fighter with no feats or weapon training. I look at it as a witch who can wear armor and have more HP, BAB, and better weapon proficiencies but no spells.
It's a cool concept, though--I'd like to see something like this.
Maybe just swap out the first level feat for an oracle curse and swap out armor training for the hexes (maybe only a few, though, not every two levels)? Might be too much in the other direction, but could be cool.
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2. Save bonus against hexes and curses replaces bravery.
4. Ability to cast bestow curse once per day as SLA (fighter level = caster level, Int-based DC) replaces weapon training 1. WP 2, 3 and 4 replaced by additional daily use of this ability.
I'm not sure why a cursed warrior would enjoy a bonus against hexes and curses - what I might do instead is give them a penalty equal to half their normal Bravery bonus against such things, and double the normal Bravery bonus. Call it "Nothing Left To Fear," or something to that tune.
I'd also leave them one level of Weapon Training (Weapon Training 1 when they'd normally get Weapon Training 2). That leaves them ultimately getting 3 uses of their curse per day, an appropriately traditional number.
Finally, why would the DC be Intelligence-based? They didn't choose and don't understand their curse. I'd be inclined to make it Wisdom-based.
A curses fighter seems like a different thing altogether from a fighter who bestows them, and I'm more intrigued by the oracle curse aspect than I am the witch hex aspect. Are you set on keeping the two aspects together or would you consider focusing on just one?
If you are thinking about going the "replaces armor training" route, you could delay all benefits until 3rd level. An archetype doesn't need to begin at 1st level.
I probably wouldn't trade out all the bonus feats for witch hexes. Doesn't leave you with a lot of Fighter left.
1. Oracle curse progresses at half the normal rate. If you have levels in Oracle, you must have the same curse and you treat your fighter levels as Oracle levels for advancing that curse.
2. Sounds good.
3. Replace bonus feat 4 with the ability to select a flexible hex for the day 1/day as a ten minute ritual. Replace bonus feat 8, 12, and 16 with the ability to change your hex an additional time per day as another ten minute ritual. Replace your 20th level bonus feat with the ability to pick a major hex. (In general, upper-half options are off limits to other classes. Nobody gets advanced rogue talents except rogues, advanced ninja talents but ninjas, major hexes but witches, and so on, even though classes get access to the lower level equivalents.)
4. Sounds good. Replace Weapon Mastery with upgrading the curse to Major Curse.
Thanks for the input, guys. Instead of discussing it all point for point, I'm just going to post my 1st draft of the archetype and see what y'all think:
The link goes to my Base Class Archetypes folder on Google Drive. The fighter archetype is called the Cursed Warrior. If I make any changes, those will be reflected in the file found in that folder. It's more convenient than posting a direct link, which will swiftly become outdated if the archetype is updated.
@Barnes: I will say right off the bat that, yes, I do want to try to mesh the oracle's curse mechanic with the ability to sling curses and hexes. I understand that's a flavor that might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I like the idea of someone who is inflicted with a mysterious curse and learns to channel its power to curse others, and I want to make a neat fighter archetype out of it, if I can. :)
@QuidEst: Just a brief correction. I know upper-half options are usually not accessible to archetypes, but hexes are a special case. I'm granting these guys access to major hexes because hexcrafter maguses also gain access to those at 12th level, and I refuse to let them have all the fun.
Cheers,
- Gears
Fighter' Curse (Su): A fighter's curse comes with a benefit as well as a hindrance. He chooses one curse from the list below at 1st level, and once the choice is made it cannot be changed. The fighter's curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity. A fighter’s curse is based on her cursed fighter level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than cursed fighter.
Blackened
Your hands and forearms are shriveled and blackened, as if you had plunged your arms into a blazing fire, and your thin, papery skin is sensitive to the touch. You take a –4 penalty on weapon attack rolls. You can cast burning hands once per day as a spell-like ability.
At 5th level, You can cast scorching ray and flaming sphere once per day as a spell-like ability.
At 10th level, you can cast wall of fire once per day as a spell-like ability, and your penalty on weapon attack rolls is reduced to –2.
At 15th level, you can cast delayed blast fireball once per day as a spell-like ability
Clouded Vision
Your eyes are obscured, making it difficult for you to see. You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision. Add Perception and Sense Motive to your list of class skills.
At 5th level, this distance increases to 60 feet.
At 10th level, you gain blindsense out to a range of 30 feet.
At 15th level, you gain blindsight out to a range of 15 feet.
Deaf
You cannot hear and suffer all of the usual penalties for being deafened. Add Perception and Sense Motive to your list of class skills.
At 5th level, you receive a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks that do not rely upon hearing, and the initiative penalty for being deaf is reduced to –2.
At 10th level, you gain scent and you do not suffer any penalty on initiative checks due to being deaf.
At 15th level, you gain tremorsense out to a range of 30 feet.
Haunted
Malevolent spirits follow you wherever you go, causing minor mishaps and strange occurrences (such as unexpected breezes, small objects moving on their own, and faint noises). Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer. Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction. You can cast mage hand and ghost sound once per day each as a spell-like ability.
At 5th level, you can cast levitate or minor image once per day as a spell-like ability.
At 10th level, you can cast telekinesis once per day as a spell-like ability.
At 15th level, you can cast reverse gravity once per day as a spell-like ability.
Lame
One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet. Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance.
At 5th level, you are immune to the fatigued condition (but not exhaustion)
At 10th level, your speed is never reduced by armor.
At 15th level, you are immune to the exhausted condition.
Tongues
In times of stress or unease, you speak in tongues. Pick one of the following languages: Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Ignan, Infernal, or Terran. Whenever you are in combat, you can only speak and understand the selected language. You gain the selected language as a bonus language.
At 5th level, pick an additional language to speak in combat and add it to your list of known languages.
At 10th level, you can understand any spoken language, as if under the effects of tongues, even during combat.
At 15th level, you can speak and understand any language, but your speech is still restricted during combat.
Wasting
Your body is slowly rotting away. You take a –4 penalty on Charisma-based skill checks, except for Intimidate. You gain a +4 competence bonus on saves made against disease.
At 5th level, you are immune to the sickened condition (but not nauseated).
At 10th level, you gain immunity to disease.
At 15th level, you are immune to the nauseated condition.
So, you would propose this, rather than granting the spells gained from one's curse as options for the curse caster ability? I.e., that you always get a 1/day casting of each spell granted by your curse, in addition to gaining the curse caster ability? I suppose that could be fair.
Well I think the granting curses thing is a whole other headache, and might do it more like the 3.5 hexblade. What I wrote would function simply as an add-on to the base fighter (or any class for that matter).
Why is gaining an SLA a few times per day a headache exactly? Seems very mechanically straight-forward to me. I don't want these guys to be full-blown spellcasters. I just want them to have acquired a few magic tricks because of the inherent eldritch puissance of their curse. The only reason I added in curse caster was because, while hexes are cool and thematic, no hex actually allows you to inflict a permanent curse, and I wanted them to have that option.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. I do think it would work better than my current set-up insofar as granting an actual use of these SLAs, rather than adding them to the options provided by curse caster, feels a bit more balanced when you compare those curses with other curses.
Unfortunately, most hexes aren't particularly useful for martials (I came to that conclusion when I created my pact-bound cavalier archetype).
It would help if there were a critical feat that allowed you to use a hex as a swift action (similar to the spellblight critical feats--thought I'd mention them here, as they are curses).
I would tend to disagree with that statement, Amanuensis. I think there are plenty of hexes that would broaden a fighter's capabilities. Obviously Flight is amazing. Feral Speech is a nice utility hex, as is Charm, Tongues and Disguise. With the cursed warrior's current set-up, hex DCs are Wis-based, so boosting his hex DCs would also help shore up his bad Will save. I'm sure something cool can be done with the Prehensile Hair hex on a full BAB chassis (potentially making an ultra SAD-character focused almost solely on Wis, with a smattering of Dex and Con). I also think creating difficult terrain at will as a standard action (via Swamp's Grasp) is something that could come in handy. The Healing hex isn't too shabby for emergencies. I'm not saying all hexes are ideal for fighters, but I definitely think there's more than a few fun and cool ones, maybe not always for combat use but for utility and such.
That being said, I agree with you that a hex-focused critical feat would definitely be a useful addition. Maybe we could write one up and tack it onto the cursed warrior. Any suggestions for what it could look like? It would be great if it could also allow you to cast one of your curse caster SLAs (or a spell gained from your oracle's curse) in place of inflicting a hex on a crit.
I was unclear. The headache, I suppose, would be cramming oracle's curse AND hex into the fighter, while still remaining a fighter. I think a fighter without bonus feats isn't a fighter anymore. It' would be something that warrants a new class altogether, perhaps a twist on the hexblade. Maybe you could really stretch your legs by making this a prestige class open to many classes?
If you used fighter's curse as I wrote it - or something similar of your own design - I think it could be a simple add-on. No other class features added, lost, or modified (although depending on the potency you give the curse, you could drop bravery).
If you want to add an additional class feature such as hex, I could see losing one of the training progressions or half of the bonus feats (2, 6, 10, 14, 18). I would suggest though making some custome hexes that play into the cursed fighter theme.
Well, I think that looks cool, but I still think I prefer my archetype version (the Cursed Warrior located HERE).
Basically, the thing I like about curses is that they're nasty, permanent things that are really hard to get rid of. Hence, I prefer my curse caster ability to your bestow curse ability, if only because it lets you mimic curse spells, which do tend to have permanent durations. As you'll see, I did manage both to retain bonus feats in my archetype, as well as make sure that if you choose a curse that normally grants spells known, you get to cast each of those spells as an SLA once per day, in addition to your curse caster SLAs. Still, though, it's two different takes on the same subject, and I like the look of both of them. :)
Cheers,
- Gears
As with all of your google doc stuff, it is unreadable on my tablet and phone. I rarely use my PC anymore.
Oh, crap, I'd totally forgotten about that. Well, here's the basic write-up:
The cursed warrior is a fighter haunted by a mysterious curse which is impossible to shake. Although this curse hampers the cursed warrior in many instances, it also imbues him with fell eldritch power with which to augment his martial prowess.
The cursed warrior is an archetype for the fighter base class.
Accursed (Ex)
At 1st level, the cursed warrior gains both the benefits and drawbacks of a single oracle's curse, using his class level as his effective oracle level to determine the curse's effects. If the cursed warrior's curse would normally add a spell to an oracle's list of spells known, that spell can instead be cast once per day as a spell-like ability, using the cursed warrior's class level as his caster level, with a Wisdom-based saving throw DC.
This replaces weapon training 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Curseworn (Ex and Sp)
At 2nd level, the cursed warrior gains a +1 bonus on all saving throws against curses and hexes. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every four class levels thereafter.
This replaces bravery.
Hexslinger (Su)
At 2nd, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level, the cursed warrior gains a single witch's hex of his choice. To determine the effects of his hexes, the cursed warrior uses his class level as his effective witch level, and his Wisdom modifier in place of his Intelligence modifier. Beginning at 12th level, the cursed warrior can select a major hex instead of a regular witch's hex. Beginning at 20th level, he can select a grand hex instead.
This replaces the bonus feats normally gained at 2nd, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level.
Curse Caster (Sp)
At 3rd level, the cursed warrior chooses a single spell from either the oracle or the witch spell list that has the [curse] descriptor and whose spell level is equal to or lesser than 1 + 1/3 his class level. The cursed warrior can cast his chosen spell once per day as a spell-like ability, using his class level as the caster level and basing the spell's saving throw DC on his Wisdom modifier. At 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th level, the cursed warrior can use this ability one additional time per day. At these intervals, the cursed warrior also adds an additional spell with the [curse] descriptor to his list of options when using this ability.
This replaces armor training 1, 2, 3 and 4, as well as armor mastery.
Anyway, the differences between your "full class" version and my archetype are rather slim. In a way, it would possibly be more interesting to write up a full-blown base class based around the idea of a "cursed fighter", but I just don't personally feel up to the task.
Yous is short and concise - good things for an archetype. I suppose my thought is that for a fighter archetype, there isn't much left of the 'fighter'.
I'm able to read other people's google docs I wonder what the problem is.
I recently got a tablet, and I tried reading one of my files on it, and I just got a weird error message. So while I didn't seem to have the same problem as you, I was also unable to access the content. I wonder if it's something to do with them being .pdfs? That doesn't sound right though.
Anyway, yeah, I kind of agree with you. I think it's a serviceable archetype, though, even if it trades out a bit too much. Maybe in future creating a proper "accursed" base class, a full or 3/4 BAB class all about supernatural curses and hexes (no spellcasting) could be feasible. For now though I think I'm going to let this project rest.
Cheers,
- Gears