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Is the ninja legal for play?
Yes (provided you have the book/pdf they're from)
And do the alternate classes qualify for archetypes of the parent class provided they have the abilities that are swapped?
Probably. Ninja scout is a really popular combo.
When they came out alternate classes were repeatedly described as really big archtypes with the work done for you in both the rules and by developer clarification. Then unchained came out and oops.. you could make an unchained ninja. So then they said no unchained ninjas, slated that part of the book to be taken out and kinda left what the heck archtypes were up in the air.
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Quick way to check if something is legal in pfsI looked. It's not mentioned in ultimate combat's FAQ entry, rather, it's indirectly legal in the form of not being mentioned after the
All material from this book is legal for play except as noted below
So I wasn't sure. I really wish the "additional resources" was written in the form of what you can do, as opposed to what you can't do.
Anyway, thanks very much for the speedy responses.
Follow up, does poison bought apply as single use, or single use per session?
Any character with the Poison Use class ability can purchase and use poisons. For now, they are the only classes that have a list of “always available poisons” (those noted below)—no other class may purchase poisons unless they appear on a chronicle sheet. Alchemists, ninja, and poisoner rogues may only purchase the following poisons from the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook:
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So I wasn't sure. I really wish the "additional resources" was written in the form of what you can do, as opposed to what you can't do.
Books are listed as permissive or exclusive depending on what would be shorter. If it listed everything the additional resources document would be an encyclopedia. It really has to be listed that way...
Also note the archives of nethys method, which is what I use 99% of the time.
Anyway, thanks very much for the speedy responses.
Follow up, does poison bought apply as single use, or single use per session?
Single use and generally not worth it in my experience. Most things don't live long enough for it to go into effect...
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Books are listed as permissive or exclusive depending on what would be shorter. If it listed everything the additional resources document would be an encyclopedia. It really has to be listed that way...
Also note the archives of nethys method, which is what I use 99% of the time.
They are not always correct. I've found it pays to double check the additional resources.
Anyway, just a wish. Especially for things like legal classes, deities, and such, a definitive list of what was legal would be wonderful.
Single use and generally not worth it in my experience. Most things don't live long enough for it to go into effect...
Totally agree. But as a class feature, definitely seems like something worth knowing how it works.
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Ninja is legal but has some Terrible Glaring holes in it
1 (and probably the least) no trapfinding
2 - no evasion
I played a Ninja ... once I hit level 8 (Ninja 6 Fighter 2 - very feat heavy build) the loss of evasion was too painful, I ended up taking 2 levels of Monk and a level of Trapmaster Ranger in order to fix the issues with it
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Ninja is legal but has some Terrible Glaring holes in it
1 (and probably the least) no trapfinding
2 - no evasionI played a Ninja ... once I hit level 8 (Ninja 6 Fighter 2 - very feat heavy build) the loss of evasion was too painful, I ended up taking 2 levels of Monk and a level of Trapmaster Ranger in order to fix the issues with it
Evasion is an advanced ninja trick. 11th level, I think.
Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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There's some debate over whether Ninja stacks with other archetypes, but as far as I can tell, you can do so. The developers haven't really spoken about it, but the fact that they stated you can't make an Unchained Ninja (Rogue) makes me think they regret allowing it in the first place.
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Evasion is an advanced ninja trick. 11th level, I think.Ninja is legal but has some Terrible Glaring holes in it
1 (and probably the least) no trapfinding
2 - no evasionI played a Ninja ... once I hit level 8 (Ninja 6 Fighter 2 - very feat heavy build) the loss of evasion was too painful, I ended up taking 2 levels of Monk and a level of Trapmaster Ranger in order to fix the issues with it
10th level. Tricks are at even levels. I took it on mine. For the build he mentioned, though, he couldn't get it until 12th due to the fighter dip. Most ninja builds take the Invisible Blade/Greater Invisibility advanced trick at 10th, though.
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Most ninja builds take the Invisible Blade/Greater Invisibility advanced trick at 10th, though.
Yeah, does seem like the stealth is one of the main advantages to the class.
I did find an interesting bit in that taking ranks in both Ninja and Monk allows a choice in using Wis or Cha for the combined Ki Pool.
The other interesting one is with Cleric levels, using either Norgorber or Irori. There's a Poison Channel for Norgorber that reduces resistances to poison, and a Ki Channgel for Irori that enables the Ninja-Cleric to effectively stack his channel and ki.
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Books are listed as permissive or exclusive depending on what would be shorter. If it listed everything the additional resources document would be an encyclopedia. It really has to be listed that way...
Also note the archives of nethys method, which is what I use 99% of the time.
They are not always correct. I've found it pays to double check the additional resources.
Anyway, just a wish. Especially for things like legal classes, deities, and such, a definitive list of what was legal would be wonderful.
Single use and generally not worth it in my experience. Most things don't live long enough for it to go into effect...Totally agree. But as a class feature, definitely seems like something worth knowing how it works.
Steve Lau/Dragnmoon has a post around here, thought it was stickied, with a link to a Google document with a bare bones listing of all PFS legal deities.
Most classes, true classes, are legal for PFS. Archetypes (case-by-case), and evil classes (antipaladin) and PrCs (assassin) are not legal.
I admit I would love a list of classes and legal archetypes. I know I listed the legal pregens somewhere, and there were a lot of them, even without there being pregens for some classes/books yet. Of course, that egal archetypes list would be even nicer as a matrix (class x archetype) and include compatible archetypes (Blade Bound & Kensai, for instance) as their own entries, as well.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I admit I would love a list of classes and legal archetypes. I know I listed the legal pregens somewhere, and there were a lot of them, even without there being pregens for some classes/books yet. Of course, that egal archetypes list would be even nicer as a matrix (class x archetype) and include compatible archetypes (Blade Bound & Kensai, for instance) as their own entries, as well.
Not quite what you are looking for, But Archive of Nethys comes *very* close. (and if you are willing to write some very simple scripts, you could get exactly what you want, just be a good net citizen and run it once and cache the results.)
I wanted to create a Rogue/Ninja but looking into I believe it's not legal to do that.
I had a 7th level Ninja who took a level of Investigator (Sleuth) to get Evasion, Disable Magical Traps, +2 Init, and +2 Will bonus (sorely needed) - Provided I don't use up all my Luck points.
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Not quite what you are looking for, But Archive of Nethys comes *very* close. (and if you are willing to write some very simple scripts, you could get exactly what you want, just be a good net citizen and run it once and cache the results.)
I didn't mean to belittle the site. I love the Archive of Nethys, very useful.
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Single use and generally not worth it in my experience. Most things don't live long enough for it to go into effect...
Okay, been looking. I still agree, I don't think applied poison is worthwhile for a number of reasons, but, sake of argument:
-The Ninja has the Poison Bomb ninja trick which allows a single does of poison to affect multiple creatures.
-Pernicious Stab & Powerful Poisoning are two PFS feats to dramatically increase your Poison DC without actually creating the poison. I don't think these work with the poison bomb, but they are still notable.
-Expert Sniper & Master Sniper feats would go a long way in attempting ranged poison after sneaking into position.
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Most poison in Pathfinder/3.5 became almost inconsequential (but then, I grew up on "save vs. poison or die!" poison...) I hope that when Pathfinder v2 is considered, poisons will be re-vamped. Ideally, they should do some damage no matter what, and more if you fail a save, or perhaps have a different onset time and frequency if you make or fail the save.
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Pernicious Stab and Powerful Poisoning look interesting. For PFS, I think you'd still want to work in a level dip into something that can craft poisons to make them economical. I've been working on a reach, finesse Unchained Rogue build using the Elven Branched Spear. This could be an interesting path to go with that character. A level dip into Investigator or Alchemist might have some other benefits. Or just going Poisoner Rogue, which I think should be compatible with Unchained Rogue as all it gives up are Trapfinding and Trapsense.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I seem to recall someone tried to make a guide to using poison effectively in pfs, pretty much all of what they came up with turned out not to work.
Poisons work best if you can snipe and run away and wait for them to take effect, or if you have disposable minions who can be used to weaken the enemy before they get to you. Tactics that usually work better when you have the home field advantage.
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I seem to recall someone tried to make a guide to using poison effectively in pfs, pretty much all of what they came up with turned out not to work.
The bottom line I keep running into is that just too many things are either immune or have far too high fortitude to make poisons realistic. Disease based attacks run into the same issue (not that I'm trying those, but I like to see what the options are).
Ultimately, there are 2 ways I've found to reasonably poison in PFS: Natural attacks that poison and the Poison Spell. All others are expensive and unreliable.
Beyond that, any method that is reasonably effective is also definitely evil, which is a no-go in PFS (and not something I'm interested in role playing). Yeah, if you overly specialized in poison, you'd be able to make it pretty solid against some opponents, but I doubt it would be comparable to other specializations.
I wish Paizo had added an archetype for the Ninja that doesn't use poison.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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They did. It is called a rogue. It trades out poison use and Ki pool for a bunch of other stuff.
Actually, ninja is a "super archtype" of rogue, so it doesn't get archtypes of its own. That said, the only reference to poison in the base ninja is that they can use it without poisoning themselves. There is certainly plenty they can do without it.
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They did. It is called a rogue. It trades out poison use and Ki pool for a bunch of other stuff.
Actually, ninja is a "super archtype" of rogue, so it doesn't get archtypes of its own. That said, the only reference to poison in the base ninja is that they can use it without poisoning themselves. There is certainly plenty they can do without it.
The other alternate classes, do actually have archetypes. Ninja's lack of archetype make it the only class without archetypes. There are some 3rd-party ninja archetypes, though.
Anyway, yeah, I agree, you can totally run a ninja without poison. They don't need it. But I'd still wish for an archetype that removes it in exchange for something, anything.
As for the ki pool, I love the ki-pool. It's a really strong option.