I understand the reading of the spell by RAW does not mention any mechanical change in the animal's attitude. However it does mention that the spell "...soothes and quiets animals, rendering them docile and harmless".
The affected creatures remain where they are and do not attack or flee. They are not helpless and defend themselves normally if attacked. Any threat breaks the spell on the threatened creatures.
Would it not be logical then to assume that the attitude of a 'hostile' animal affected by this spell would improve to at least 'indifferent'?
Thanks in advance for your comments!!
Shameless self-bump...
Shameless self-bump...
calm animals would be much like the bard's fascinate abilities.
"Fascinate (Su): At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and capable of paying attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creatures affected. The Distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard has attained beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with this ability."
and then the fascinated condition states
"A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature's ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action."
So basically, if you are a druid. And you accidentally stumble upon a den of Dire Fiendish bears who have not eaten in months, you can cast this spell, and the bears are then calmed for the duration of this spell. Because its a magical ability causing their calmness.
once the duration is done, then those Dire Fiendish bears are still going to be hungry, and are still going to be angry that you are in their den.
Maybe during this time roll Handle animal to your heart's content and hope you can shift a hungry bears attitude to at least friendly before your spell times out.
So basically, if you are a druid. And you accidentally stumble upon a den of Dire Fiendish bears who have not eaten in months, you can cast this spell, and the bears are then calmed for the duration of this spell. Because its a magical ability causing their calmness.
once the duration is done, then those Dire Fiendish bears are still going to be hungry, and are still going to be angry that you are in their den.Maybe during this time roll Handle animal to your heart's content and hope you can shift a hungry bears attitude to at least friendly before your spell times out.
The correct tactic here is to throw the halfling rogue into the den and run other way while they are enjoying the appetizer.
edit: And whatever you do don't wildshape into a bear because after they fill their bellies they are going to want a little lovin after so long in hibernation. That is when things will get really ugly.
The correct tactic here is to throw the halfling rogue into the den and run other way while they are enjoying the appetizer.
So basically, if you are a druid. And you accidentally stumble upon a den of Dire Fiendish bears who have not eaten in months, you can cast this spell, and the bears are then calmed for the duration of this spell. Because its a magical ability causing their calmness.
once the duration is done, then those Dire Fiendish bears are still going to be hungry, and are still going to be angry that you are in their den.Maybe during this time roll Handle animal to your heart's content and hope you can shift a hungry bears attitude to at least friendly before your spell times out.
Hahaha, loved the idea.
In all seriousness, I agree with Fernn that once the spell wears out, the bears in the example would go back to being hostile.
But, would you both agree with me that, while under the spell's effect, the bears would be at least indifferent to me (RAI), and I can then attempt to change their attitude using wild empathy to friendly/helpful?
But, would you both agree with me that, while under the spell's effect, the bears would be at least indifferent to me (RAI), and I can then attempt to change their attitude using wild empathy to friendly/helpful?
I would not. "Docile" is not the same as "indifferent."
In general, I'm a fan of "the spell does what it says it does," and it doesn't say that it makes the animal like you any better, just that it renders the animal "docile." In pharmacological terms, it's a tranquilizer, not a euphoriant.
No, I would definitely not agree to that.
They hold the same disposition to you that they always did, they are however magically stopped from actively trying to cause you harm.
Compare it to how the calm emotions spell works.
So no, I wouldn't let you use diplomacy starting at indifferent and working your way up.
At best, if I allowed it, once the magic of the spell wore off they would drop the same amount that they were initially changed by, 2 for hostile to indifferent, ending with the creatures being at unfriendly.
Fair enough, I do agree with both Orfamay Quest and Claxon, they present very good analogies. I am quite the legalist myself, just trying to find a way of making Wild Empathy not suck so much, hehe.
By the way, would you guys happen to know of any way of improving Wild Empathy checks?, the DC's to attempt to change a creature attitude are quite high and there's no way to put ranks in Wild Empathy.
The correct tactic here is to throw the halfling rogue into the den and run other way while they are enjoying the appetizer.
So basically, if you are a druid. And you accidentally stumble upon a den of Dire Fiendish bears who have not eaten in months, you can cast this spell, and the bears are then calmed for the duration of this spell. Because its a magical ability causing their calmness.
once the duration is done, then those Dire Fiendish bears are still going to be hungry, and are still going to be angry that you are in their den.Maybe during this time roll Handle animal to your heart's content and hope you can shift a hungry bears attitude to at least friendly before your spell times out.
Hahaha, loved the idea.
In all seriousness, I agree with Fernn that once the spell wears out, the bears in the example would go back to being hostile.
But, would you both agree with me that, while under the spell's effect, the bears would be at least indifferent to me (RAI), and I can then attempt to change their attitude using wild empathy to friendly/helpful?
I guess the only good way to change a creatures attitude is thorugh wild empathy. Otherwise handle animal is just a mundane interaction with an animal.
The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
A druid can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check.
In my experience, you're right that wild empathy is mostly a waste. I say this having played lots of rangers with dumped charisma. I mostly just forgot it was on my character sheet.
However, the Ring of Sacred Mistletoe can help improve it.
Beast scent also adds a +2 competence bonus, but as both are competence bonuses they would not stack.
In my experience, you're right that wild empathy is mostly a waste. I say this having played lots of rangers with dumped charisma. I mostly just forgot it was on my character sheet.
In my game I house rule it to be a Handle Animal check adding 1/2 your druid level.
In my experience, you're right that wild empathy is mostly a waste. I say this having played lots of rangers with dumped charisma. I mostly just forgot it was on my character sheet.
However, the Ring of Sacred Mistletoe can help improve it.
Beast scent also adds a +2 competence bonus, but as both are competence bonuses they would not stack.
Actually, the items you're mentioning grant a competence bonus and a circumstance bonus respectively, so they would stack.
Still, a +4 bonus is not that big a deal when dealing with a ridiculously high DC (25 + the creature's CHA).
Anyway, thanks for the tip :)
But, would you both agree with me that, while under the spell's effect, the bears would be at least indifferent to me (RAI), and I can then attempt to change their attitude using wild empathy to friendly/helpful?The spell doesn't change the attitude of the creature, per say. However, Calm Animals would allow you to use Wild Empathy on a hostile animal to begin with.
To use wild empathy, the ranger and the animal must be within 30 feet of one another under normal visibility conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.There is no attitude requirement to use Wild Empathy, but there is a duration requirement. Calm Animals would give you that 1 minute you need to at least attempt a check, even if it was against a hostile creature.
At mid to low levels, Wild Empathy is not intended as a way to contend with hostile animals or it wouldn't require a 1 minute duration. However, I do think Calm Animals does facilitate what you're attempting, but only at high levels, like 10+. Calm the animal and Take 10 for a 20. If you can get a couple of bonuses, like the above mentioned +4, that's going to work on just about any animal that has less than a 10 charisma (which is probably most of them). For example a Herd Animal has a CHA of 4 which would require a 22 Wild Empathy check to change the attitude if it were hostile.
Wild Empathy works really well at befriending animals in cities and in outdoor settings. Particularly birds, rats, squirrels, owls. Combine that with a Speak with Animals wand and there are ton of useful things you can do. I've used rats to scout out sewer systems and pelicans to hide wands. You just need a permissive GM whose goal in life is not to shut down creativity. Also recognize that the bigger the advantage you try to leverage with animals, the more likely the GM will knee-jerk.
Thank you for your input, N N 959. The Calm Animals spell has a duration of 1 min./lvl; taking a 20 "... takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take". Therefore, taking a 20 to change the attitude of an animal who is under the effect of a Calm Animals spell would only be effective if you are caster level 20 yourself, or have a means of extending the spell's duration at lower levels (Extend spell Feat or Metamagic Extend Rod, etc.), otherwise, the animal would snap out of the spell before you can finish sweet-growling to it.
Taking a 10 while under Calm Animals seems like a more viable option at mid levels (10+), as it does not increase the time it takes to influence the animal using Wild Empathy, so long as you're not dealing with a particularly charming animal.
To be fair, at mid-high levels (when the ability or combo starts being useful) you're rarely dealing with animals as enemies, so this ability as a means to avoid combat would be way more useful at low levels (when it sucks and you don't have enough cash to buy items to improve it) as you're more commonly dealing with hostile animals in the jungle and such.
I do take your point, tho. I think you hit the nail right in the head when you mentioned that this ability is meant to be used out of combat to befriend animals and have them scout or smuggle for you.
Thread reincarnate successful!
You can't normally use the diplomacy skill to affect an animal:
You cannot use Diplomacy against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence of 3 or less.
So basically, if you are a druid. And you accidentally stumble upon a den of Dire Fiendish bears who have not eaten in months, you can cast this spell, and the bears are then calmed for the duration of this spell. Because its a magical ability causing their calmness.
once the duration is done, then those Dire Fiendish bears are still going to be hungry, and are still going to be angry that you are in their den.Maybe during this time roll Handle animal to your heart's content and hope you can shift a hungry bears attitude to at least friendly before your spell times out.
The correct tactic here is to throw the halfling rogue into the den and run other way while they are enjoying the appetizer.
edit: And whatever you do don't wildshape into a bear because after they fill their bellies they are going to want a little lovin after so long in hibernation. That is when things will get really ugly.
What you should do is cast Summon Monster VI and select a Succubus.
Then you will have a druid, a bear, and a succubus.
/cevah