The Mangler Monk - looking for critique of a Wolf Savage tripper build


Advice


I rarely build monks that I think could actually do decent damage along with having cool tactics, so I'm excited for this one.

The concept is to use a reach weapon along with Wolf Trip, Wolf Savage, and Vicious Stomp to mangle any who dare oppose me. Someone trying to approach in melee provokes an AoO, gets tripped, provokes again from Greater Trip, and provokes again from Vicious Stomp. On my turn, I use Flurry of Maneuvers to trip, causing them to provoke twice and giving a chance to mangle them with Wolf Savage.

Build might look like this:

Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms - fauchard) Qinggong Maneuver Master Monk
strength 18, dexterity 14, constitution 12, intelligence 10, wisdom 15, charisma 7
traits: Elven Reflexes, Tianjing Temple Guard
1: Power Attack, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Maneuvers, Stunning Fist
2: Combat Reflexes, Evasion
3: Vicious Stomp, Maneuver Training, Maneuver Defense, Fast Movement
4: Ki Pool, Reliable Maneuver
5: Wolf Style, Meditative Maneuver, High Jump
6: Greater Trip
7: Wolf Trip, true strike (Qinggong)
8:
9: Wolf Savage, Improved Evasion
10: Tripping Strike
11: Quicken Spell-Like Ability (true strike), Sweeping Maneuver
12: Abundant Step
13: Dimensional Agility, Ki Throw (Qinggong)
14: Improved Ki Throw
15: Dimensional Assault, Whirlwind Maneuver
16:
17: Dimensional Dervish, Greater Blind-Fight (Qinggong), Penetrating Strike (Qinggong)
18: Medusa's Wrath
19: Critical Focus, Empty Body
20: Perfect Self

It should go without saying that this dude is a tripping machine, and from level 1 he is doing good damage Power Attacking with a two-handed d10 weapon with 18-20/x2 crit range, so that even against un-trippable opponents he can hold his own. (Although with quickened true strike 3/day, they better actually be immune to trip if they want to stay standing.)

I'd love to hear any critiques.


This is marvelous. I've long been interested in finding an effective way to use the Wolf Style line, and this build does an excellent job.

There are, however, several issues:

The build's Wolf Savage DC is embarrassingly low - probably DC 17 when you get it at ninth level, and it doesn't improve much from there. It has the same problems as Stunning Fist: your target gets a Fortitude save, and you really need a high wisdom and Ability Focus to rely on them failing it.

AC. Flurry of Maneuvers does not work in armor, so it appears that the character's starting AC is 14. How exactly are you planning on improving that? Magic items only go so far.

HP. A Constitution score of 12 on a front-liner with d8 hit dice is asking for a character death. This only compounds your AC problem.

Really, all of these issues stem from the insane MADness of the build. You need strength for attack, damage, and tripping. You need dexterity for AC and attacks of opportunity (initiative and Reflex are nice too). You need CON for HP (Fortitude is nice too). You need Wisdom for AC and Wolf Savage DC (Will and Stunning Fist are nice too). Int is often a monk dump stat, but you have very few skills to begin with, with no human or half-orc bonus skill points and 9 ranks taken up by Knowledge (nature) for the Wolf Style line. Charisma...can be easily dumped, but that's not enough to make up for how thinly your other stats need to be spread.

Oh, and at least at first glance, the build has no ranged combat options whatsoever. Your first encounter with flying creatures might be your last.

And incidentally, you don't qualify for Power Attack until level 2.


Something else to be aware of is that when an opponent provokes when standing up from prone, the attack resolves while they're still considered prone, meaning you can't use that attack of opportunity to keep them prone. This is to prevent you from being able to 'trip lock' opponents.


Why a fauchard? A flying blade or elven branched spear gives a +2 on the AoOs you'll be hoping to use wolf style with.

Why keep high jump, if you're going qinggong? Almost anything you might trade it out for would be better.


You have some other nice options for traits, including Bullied and Bred for War. Initiative is handy, but I'm not sure the difference between a +2 and a +4 is worth the trait slot.


Avoron wrote:
You have some other nice options for traits, including Bullied and Bred for War. Initiative is handy, but I'm not sure the difference between a +2 and a +4 is worth the trait slot.

Ooh, Bred for War is really nice, I'll put that in! I looked at Bullied but hopefully any unarmed AoOs I make will be against prone opponents anyway, so I shouldn't need too much help.

avr wrote:

Why a fauchard? A flying blade or elven branched spear gives a +2 on the AoOs you'll be hoping to use wolf style with.

Why keep high jump, if you're going qinggong? Almost anything you might trade it out for would be better.

The -2 on attack rolls with a flying blade is pretty yucky. Branched spear is interesting - the damage die and crit profile are worse and it's not a trip weapon, but +2 on AoOs with it is nice.

I wasn't seeing anything great to trade High Jump for, although as Avoron suggests having something to deal with fliers could be helpful, so maybe Scorching Ray is the way to go.

Nargenn wrote:
Something else to be aware of is that when an opponent provokes when standing up from prone, the attack resolves while they're still considered prone, meaning you can't use that attack of opportunity to keep them prone. This is to prevent you from being able to 'trip lock' opponents.

Yeah, I'm well aware of that - but if you really want to "trip lock", this char could do that in a couple other ways. The obvious one - ready an trip attempt when they get up. (By 11th level he can even ready two trip attempts and give a +20 bonus to one of them.)

The second way to trip lock is that once you're (permanently) enlarged, you can use Ki Throw to force them to land 20 feet away after you trip them with an AoO. Then if they try to approach you again, you trip them again with your AoO, throw them away, etc.

Avoron wrote:

This is marvelous. I've long been interested in finding an effective way to use the Wolf Style line, and this build does an excellent job.

There are, however, several issues:

The build's Wolf Savage DC is embarrassingly low - probably DC 17 when you get it at ninth level, and it doesn't improve much from there. It has the same problems as Stunning Fist: your target gets a Fortitude save, and you really need a high wisdom and Ability Focus to rely on them failing it.

AC. Flurry of Maneuvers does not work in armor, so it appears that the character's starting AC is 14. How exactly are you planning on improving that? Magic items only go so far.

HP. A Constitution score of 12 on a front-liner with d8 hit dice is asking for a character death. This only compounds your AC problem.

Really, all of these issues stem from the insane MADness of the build. You need strength for attack, damage, and tripping. You need dexterity for AC and attacks of opportunity (initiative and Reflex are nice too). You need CON for HP (Fortitude is nice too). You need Wisdom for AC and Wolf Savage DC (Will and Stunning Fist are nice too). Int is often a monk dump stat, but you have very few skills to begin with, with no human or half-orc bonus skill points and 9 ranks taken up by Knowledge (nature) for the Wolf Style line. Charisma...can be easily dumped, but that's not enough to make up for how thinly your other stats need to be spread.

Oh, and at least at first glance, the build has no ranged combat options whatsoever. Your first encounter with flying creatures might be your last.

And incidentally, you don't qualify for Power Attack until level 2.

Some good critique here. The save DC is not amazing, but it scales nicely. Sure it's unlikely to work against things with great Fort saves, but for debilitating enemy casters/rogue-types/etc. it is a very reasonable DC. Another option for improving the odds is subbing in Improved Dirty Trick for Tripping Strike at 10th. Then, any time you start your turn standing over a prone opponent, use your Flurry of Maneuvers to sicken him before you make your unarmed attacks and use Wolf Savage, getting an effective +2 to your DC (along with the other benefits of having a sickened opponent.)

For AC, Mage Armor does a lot to shore it up. Plus the deterrence effect of a reach weapon, and the fact that any trippable enemies will spend a lot of time prone (or standing up from prone) will give an effective AC boost.

If you want to reduce the MADness issue, you could take avr's suggestion to use an elven branched spear and then get it agile enchanted and get an agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. But that's expensive, you lose Power Attack, it limits you to piddling damage even at low levels and pretty lame damage even after that... so I don't like that route, but it is an option.

For ranged damage, javelins are reasonable and this char has the stats to use them effectively. Or, you could sub out High Jump for Scorching Ray.

Good catch on Power Attack - move Combat Reflexes and Vicious Stomp to level 1, Improved Trip to level 2, and Power Attack to level 3.


Seems like you're missing out on most of your trip tactics by using a reach weapon. Tripping at reach wouldn't trigger any of your viscous stomp or wolf stuff. They would be to far to hit with unarmed attacks. Am I missing part of the plan?

Edit: nevermind. Missed wolf trip. Carry on!

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