Kineticist Archetype Homebrew--Comments Requested

[JCP]

Hey folks, I've been reading these boards for awhile but don't normally post much. Like some of you, I love the kineticist but recognize some issues it has. As I'm considering playing one in an upcoming home game (my current character will transition away as appropriate for the story), I have drafted a home-brew archetype derived from, but hopefully improving upon, the annihilator archetype.

I'd love to have some feedback on it. Please forgive any typos.

Elemental Warrior
(a Kineticist Archetype)

• Elemental Robes

An elemental warrior is proficient with simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shields. When unarmored, an elemental warrior adds her Constitution modifier to her AC as a morale bonus.

When unarmored an elemental warrior may substitute her constitution modifier for her strength modifier when calculating her CMB and CMD.

In addition, when unarmored, the Elemental Warrior gains a bonus to AC bonus of 1 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 every 4 levels thereafter for a total of +5 at 20th level.

This replaces the Kineticist’s normal weapon and armor proficiencies.

• War Blast

At 1st level an elemental warrior gains either precise shot or power attack as a bonus feat.

At 1st level, an elemental warrior can either shoot a kinetic blast at a target within 90 feet or make a single melee attack as if she were using kinetic blade as an attack action. For this attack, the elemental warrior’s base attack bonus from her kineticist levels is equal to her full kineticist level. When making a melee attack with war blast, the elemental warrior doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, and if she uses two hands, she adds half her con bonus as additional damage to the attack (this stacks with blasts that already add her con bonus to damage). This is a 1st-level form infusion that costs 0 points of burn and can be used with any kinetic blast. Unlike with kinetic blade, the elemental warrior can use Vital Strike with war blast.

When shooting her kinetic blast at target within range as a war blast, the elemental warrior can still use a form infusion and a substance infusion. When using her kinetic blast as a war blast to make melee attacks an elemental warrior may only use a substance infusion.

At 5th level, an elemental warrior can extend the length of her kinetic blade during her attack action, increasing the range of her melee attacks by 5ft. She can thereafter make attacks at the new range or her original range, a choice she makes with each attack.

This ability replaces the normal kinetic blast and the basic utility wild talent normally granted by selecting an element.

• Martial Flexibility

Any time a kineticist can choose a wild talent (either an infusion or utility talent), she can choose instead to gain a bonus combat feat instead of that talent. She must still meet all the prerequisites for the feat selected. She may count her total kineticist levels as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats.

• Increased Range (su):

At 3rd level, an elemental warrior gains the extended range infusion. At 9th level, she gains the extreme range infusion.

This ability replaces the 3rd- and 9th-level infusions.

• Danger Zone (ex)

At 4th level, an elemental warrior threatens all foes within her reach. If anyone provokes an attack of opportunity from her, she can make an attack of opportunity with her War Blast.

This ability replaces the 4th-level utility wild talent.

• Blast Training (ex)

At 5th level, an elemental warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls with her war blast. This bonus increases by 1 at 9th level and every 4 levels thereafter.

This ability replaces the 5th-level infusion.

• Flurry of War

At 6th level, an elemental warrior can make a full attack of war blasts either as a melee attack against targets within her reach or as a ranged attack within 120 feet as a full-attack action. Each individual attack deals damage as a war blast.

This is a 3rd-level form infusion that costs 1 point of burn. Abilities such as Rapid Shot and haste that grant additional attacks apply normally to this full attack.

This ability replaces the 6th level utility wild talent

• Elemental Prodigy

When choosing an element with the expanded element class feature, an elemental warrior uses her full kineticist level for the purpose of determining which wild talents she can learn from her expanded element.

• Flexibile Infusions

An elemental warrior learns to bind the elements and manipulate them in ways other kineticists do not. An elemental warrior may use any form or substance infusion to modify her war blast, even if the chosen infusion cannot normally be used with the chosen infusion.

This replaces her 2nd level utility wild talent

• Alternate Gatherer

The Elemental Warrior gathers power differently than other kineticists. At first level she must choose either Shadow Gather or Mobile Gather.

This replaces the Gather Power Ability.

Shadow Gather: this ability functions as the Gather Power ability except that instead of an extremely loud, visible display in a 20-foot radius, the Kineticist instead fades from view as she draws on her power gaining a bonus to stealth rolls equal to her level and the ability to hide in plain sight while she gathers power. The kineticist can attempt to hide and remain hidden while gathering power.

Mobile Gather: this ability functions as the Gather Power ability except that the Kineticist must use the move action to actually move its speed, the full round action to make two move actions at its speed, and the full round and move action to make three move actions (a double move action and a single move action on the following round) at her speed. If the kineticist does not move she cannot benefit from mobile gathering.

The Supercharge ability changes the total burn cost reduced for mobile gather and shadow gather just as it does for gathering power.

• Burn Pool

At 6th level the elemental warrior gains a burn pool. The pool contains 1 point that refreshes upon completion of a rest that removes all burn. The points in the burn pool increase to 2 points at 11th level and to 3 points at 16th level. When she would otherwise accept burn, a kineticist can spend 1 point from her pool to avoid accepting 1 point of burn. She cannot spend more than 1 point from her pool in this way for a single wild talent. Similarly, this pool can be used to exceed the limit on the number of points of burn the kineticist can accept in a single turn.

This ability replaces internal buffer.

(note this was posted at the end of a different thread but that thread, I later realized is pretty old and I thought a new thread in the appropriate place on the forums more appropriate.)

[QuidEst]

This is pretty broken, I'm afraid.

- Trading out armor proficiency for Con to AC is not remotely even. Throwing on an AC bonus is just adding to that problem. Using a physical stat to grant a morale bonus to AC is… non-intuitive.

- War Blast doesn't specify the damage. Is it full blast damage? Because if so, you're trading out some cantrip effects for triple range and double damage at no cost, on top of boosting attack and number of iteratives.

- Martial Flexibility gives more bonus feats than the Fighter, and nothing is given up in exchange for this option.

- Elemental Prodigy gives a huge boost in exchange for, again, nothing.

- Flexible Infusion will result in awkward or broken combinations. Things were designed to work together in a certain way with reasons in mind. I'm guessing Chaokineticist will be able to hand out lots of negative levels, or something like that.

- Alternate Gatherer is a big boost in power and flexibility in exchange for, still, nothing.

- Burn Pool is stronger than Internal Buffer, and the last thing this needs is more power boosts.

[JCP]

QuidEst wrote:

This is pretty broken, I'm afraid.

- Trading out armor proficiency for Con to AC is not remotely even. Throwing on an AC bonus is just adding to that problem. Using a physical stat to grant a morale bonus to AC is… non-intuitive.

- War Blast doesn't specify the damage. Is it full blast damage? Because if so, you're trading out some cantrip effects for triple range and double damage at no cost, on top of boosting attack and number of iteratives.

- Martial Flexibility gives more bonus feats than the Fighter, and nothing is given up in exchange for this option.

- Elemental Prodigy gives a huge boost in exchange for, again, nothing.

- Flexible Infusion will result in awkward or broken combinations. Things were designed to work together in a certain way with reasons in mind. I'm guessing Chaokineticist will be able to hand out lots of negative levels, or something like that.

- Alternate Gatherer is a big boost in power and flexibility in exchange for, still, nothing.

- Burn Pool is stronger than Internal Buffer, and the last thing this needs is more power boosts.

Hmmm. I drafted this in response to the many concerns I've seen on these forums about the lack of damage potential of the ranged blast. And the concerns in multiple guides and reviews regarding the kineticist's ability to keep up in a party as their DPR falls off when not using burn. The criticism I've read in multiple threads is that they are on par for a limited number of times per day and below par thereafter. I meant this to address those concerns.

Do you not agree with those concerns or is this just too far the other way?

[CalethosVB]

JCP wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

This is pretty broken, I'm afraid.

- Trading out armor proficiency for Con to AC is not remotely even. Throwing on an AC bonus is just adding to that problem. Using a physical stat to grant a morale bonus to AC is… non-intuitive.

- War Blast doesn't specify the damage. Is it full blast damage? Because if so, you're trading out some cantrip effects for triple range and double damage at no cost, on top of boosting attack and number of iteratives.

- Martial Flexibility gives more bonus feats than the Fighter, and nothing is given up in exchange for this option.

- Elemental Prodigy gives a huge boost in exchange for, again, nothing.

- Flexible Infusion will result in awkward or broken combinations. Things were designed to work together in a certain way with reasons in mind. I'm guessing Chaokineticist will be able to hand out lots of negative levels, or something like that.

- Alternate Gatherer is a big boost in power and flexibility in exchange for, still, nothing.

- Burn Pool is stronger than Internal Buffer, and the last thing this needs is more power boosts.

Hmmm. I drafted this in response to the many concerns I've seen on these forums about the lack of damage potential of the ranged blast. And the concerns in multiple guides and reviews regarding the kineticist's ability to keep up in a party as their DPR falls off when not using burn. The criticism I've read in multiple threads is that they are on par for a limited number of times per day and below par thereafter. I meant this to address those concerns.

Do you not agree with those concerns or is this just too far the other way?

For a specific DPR archetype, look at the Elemental Annihilator. Those static bonuses stack up nicely. They done have to worry about how many attacks they gain with their BAB because it doesn't matter (Flurry of Devastation). They have switch hitter built in to the class, gain a lot of now useful feats. All they give up for more damage is utility.

[QuidEst]

I don't agree with the concerns, but even if I did, this is way too far in the other direction, blowing other classes out of the water. If there's a change needed, it will be small, like allowing Annihilator to take Extra Wild Talent to pick up utility talents in a very delayed fashion.

[JCP]

Thanks for the comments you guys.

Calethos, I have seen the Elemental Annihilator. I was seeking to address with this archetype some of the issues raised in the following guides and threads:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?432093-Sucking-Counts-as-Airb ending-Right-A-Guide-to-the-Kineticist

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2su6f?Mastering-the-Elements-N-Jollys-guide-to- the

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1utgJVtJStEtZ8B923VWFYKIx6kbWQS_44zSMOb8 rkT0/edit?pref=2&pli=1

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2soy9?Methods-to-fix-the-Kineticist#1

And several others. Again I really appreciate y'all's comments as that is what I requested. I know the archetype I proposed is more powerful in several respects from the original class. I posted it hoping to address what several threads on these message boards and guides have pointed out as deficiencies in actual play. Perhaps I went too far.

Perhaps some of these ideas should be play tested one at a time or tuned one at a time rather than as an entire archetype.

The general idea is to be able to put out similar damage regularly as other party members but have the burn option to really nuke a few times a day.

While kinetic blade and kinetic whip allow more attacks and more damage in a variety of ways the kineticist seems lacking at range in a variety of ways by those who ran the numbers.

Taking all this into consideration, what do you think of any of the proposed changes? Does a different method of gathering power for stealth or movement seem interesting and workable?

Quid: thanks for the comments.

The extra armor bonus was meant to take into account that the kineticist without armor can't enchant his clothes the way a rogue, archer, or other classes can enchant their light armor to grant additional AC or other bonuses. I agree a morale bonus is counterintuitive but I wasn't sure if having it be a straight out armor bonus made sense either.

As to Martial Flexibility I thought it more appealing to have a choice of a feat or a power rather than simply losing all utility as the utility is part of the coolness of the class. I want the class to do decent damage comparable to other classes in the party but still have the utility and was looking for a way to achieve that. I assumed, perhaps naively that someone who simply wanted to take all the feats would just play a fighter. That said you do make a good point and perhaps there is a better way to achieve that goal. Or perhaps it is unnecessary in light of other changes I proposed?

Perhaps flexible infusion is too broad but the issue is that right now it is too narrow. Too many shape infusions unnecessarily cut out elements that make sense. Some elements lack infusions at certain levels and lack attack options for shapes. The AoE damage is low comparatively and the need to burn to use them prevents them from being unlimited. Also, action economy means only so many uses per combat.

Is the requirement to constantly move more powerful than standing still? Is it the stealth that's too strong? Do you feel like the requirement to stand still to avoid burn is a balancing point so that the melee can hit them, make them take burn and hit point damage? Is the loss of the ability the infliction of burn on top of damage necessary to balance?

The burn pool is essentially the same as starting out with a filled buffer isn't it? You just don't have to dump all of your unused burn into the buffer each night before rest. I get that there will be time after spending it before you can dump again and that if you are attacked in the middle of rest the burn pool is more advantages and less likely to kill you than internal buffer.

[QuidEst]

You probably shouldn't be handing out Con-to-AC at all. Defense isn't really a problem for the class. What's wrong with regular light armor?

One important thing to understand is that infusion talents and utility talents aren't created equal. You get infusions on odd levels when your damage scales- that increase in damage is part of what you're getting. Utility talents tend to be on their own. So you shouldn't allow infusions and utility to trade out equally. Like I said, my suggestion is allowing access to utility talents through the feat.

Flexible infusion is inviting clouds that deal negative levels every turn. If you want better AoE, make an archetype focused on that rather than putting it on here.

There is no requirement to constantly move (and yes, that's stronger than standing still) because they have two choices. I want silent gather energy as much as the next person, but it should be in its own stealth archetype. Noisy gathering exists for a reason: preventing two-round gathering from going unnoticed. The hide in plain sight ability makes it always go unnoticed. The reason you can't move is that it's your full attack equivalent. I wouldn't expect a Gunslinger archetype to give it a free move action when full-attacking, and definitely not for free.

Right. You're just handing them a filled buffer for free. It makes things less interesting, and it's not like there was a problem with the buffer.

Have you played the class? I realize its DPR max is lower than other ranged stuff, but it's a lot of fun. I actually found myself out-damaging the other party members, thanks to some swarms and seized equipment. Plus, best hp and fort saves in the group.

[Link-Bot]

JCP wrote:

Thanks for the comments you guys.

Calethos, I have seen the Elemental Annihilator. I was seeking to address with this archetype some of the issues raised in the following guides and threads:

Sucking Counts as Airbending, Right? - A Guide to the Kineticist

Mastering the Elements - N.Jolly's Guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist: Discussion Thread

Mastering the Elements - N.Jolly's Guide to the Pathfinder Kineticist

Methods to fix the Kineticist

And several others. Again I really appreciate y'all's comments as that is what I requested...

> LINKIFICATION COMPLETE

[The Mortonator]

I think trying to fix the kineticist is a bad idea.

It's a frame with just enough on it to get it started. Stuff like Kineticists of Porphyra make it better by just giving more options. Straight up having access to Precision Blast doesn't make every build better, but it makes a lot of builds more viable. Something you will see as more and more content is realized. You don't need to upgrade the class, you need to broaden it.

Which is why I really dislike this archetype. It's trying too hard to make Kineticists into a power machine without context for what they are good at already.