I like the idea of one head using magic and the other delivering the punches.
Anyhoo, a lot will depend on what that party develops into. That said, he shouldn't be lower than tenth level against a twelfth level party (accounting for native ettin-ness). Action economy is a big deal.
Table: Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.
Magus levels normally aren't "key" for ettins, but if you're giving it an 18 Intelligence...eh, probably still not. So each magus level up to sixth counts for .5 CR, and then everything above there counts for 1.
Six levels of magus: CR 9
Seven levels of magus: CR 10
Twelve levels of magus: CR 15 (this is roughly where you want to be).
The Ettin King lives on!
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Well, it depends on your party's optimization level, of course. But a battle with a 10th level Magus could go roughly like this.
Unless the party manages to surprise the ettin, he'll start the combat with Stoneskin and Displacement up. If not, he'll cast those as soon as possible.
Round one. Ettin sets his sword on fire as a swift action, and casts Fireball from long range.
Round two. Assuming the party's melee characters close in, ettin hastes himself as a swift action, drops a full attack on the nearest PC, five-steps back, and casts Web. If anyone counterattacks, he can parry and riposte that.
Round three. Ettin dimension doors to the party caster or other squishies, and makes a full attack on him, while the melee PCs struggle on the wrong side of the web. Concentration near the Ettin takes an automatic -4 penalty. If anyone has cast resist fire by now, he'll use another swift action to turn his sword to lightning instead.
Things like that. Can a high level party handle that? Absolutely. Is it scary and memorable? You bet.
Yeah, I didn't really analyze it blow-for-blow, but Kurald is right—an ettin magus that focuses on buffs and the like can be seriously potent.
You might consider giving him Quick Draw or the like so you can exploit the ettin's two-weapon fighting prowess without sacrificing spells. Maybe he has a collection of cheap spears, for instance.
Round three. Ettin dimension doors to the party caster or other squishies, and makes a full attack on him, while the melee PCs struggle on the wrong side of the web. Concentration near the Ettin takes an automatic -4 penalty. If anyone has cast resist fire by now, he'll use another swift action to turn his sword to lightning instead.
Why does everyone always forget that you can't do that?
... After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn
Just use Bladed Dash instead.
I'm running a campaign that will end around level 12 I'm trying to build a final boss fight using an ettin and giving him levels in magus and I'm boosting his Intelligence to 18 for caster's sake. I'm wondering how many levels in magus should I give him so i don't steam roll the party.
Assuming he's two headed ettin, you'd give class levels to each head. Once faced an ettin monk/monk with a 3.5 vow of poverty. two sets of flurries per round. I and another sorcerer put a wall of force between us and it.... liberated the slaves we came to free and beat feet.
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Round three. Ettin dimension doors to the party caster or other squishies, and makes a full attack on him, while the melee PCs struggle on the wrong side of the web. Concentration near the Ettin takes an automatic -4 penalty. If anyone has cast resist fire by now, he'll use another swift action to turn his sword to lightning instead.Why does everyone always forget that you can't do that?
Of course, it's still a standard action. Does a magus have the metamagic wriggle-room to Quicken a Dimension Door? I sort of doubt it.
Of course, it's still a standard action. Does a magus have the metamagic wriggle-room to Quicken a Dimension Door? I sort of doubt it.
Once per day using the Quicken Arcana.
Quickened Magic (Su): The magus can cast one spell per day as if it were modified by the Quicken Spell feat. This does not increase the level of the spell. The magus must be at least 15th level before selecting this magus arcana.
Oh, that's kinda cute.
Quickened Magic (Su): The magus can cast one spell per day as if it were modified by the Quicken Spell feat. This does not increase the level of the spell. The magus must be at least 15th level before selecting this magus arcana.
Since folk seem to harp about builds of that level or higher, I don't see the problem.
I would note that a standard wizard using the feat would also need to be a minimum of 15th level to expend the 8th level spell slot required.
That's kind of the point. We're talking about an ettin magus for 12th level characters. This isn't just an idle theorycrafting thread.
That's kind of the point. We're talking about an ettin magus for 12th level characters. This isn't just an idle theorycrafting thread.
I think a CR 15 encounter is a suitable challenge for an APL 12 group of six.
For an 18 intelligence remember that creatures with class levels receive a +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and -2 to their ability scores in any order, then he just needs a headband of vast intelligence +6 and two of his level increases.
@Drahliana Ettins have 2 heads but only have one mind and is treated as a single creature, they can't have separate class levels for each head.
A level 15 magus would be roughly CR 18, actually.
Because ettin. :P
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If you're going to make an Ettin Magus you should absolutely make him an Hexcrafter Magus. Let one head control the Witch Hexes and debuff opponents while the other does the melee combat and spell combat.
That would be painful for any PC party and give them a leg up on action economy to counter the PC's advantage there.
If you rule that Spell Combat counts as a single Full Round Action (which RAW seems to suggest) you could Dimension Door then full attack with it. Otherwise you have to take Dimensional Agility.
Why does everyone always forget that you can't do that?Because you totally CAN do that.
Fun feat. I stand corrected. However, most of the posts I see that mentions dimension door and acting after do not mention that feat. It is a common mistake, just like someone thinking a Monk becomes an outsider as part of their capstone (they don't, they only get treated as one as far as spells/magic effects).
I was kinda thinking of making it a one head casts and one head fights is there a way i could cross class or would eldritch knight make more sense flavor wise. Is eldritch knight still viable since magus exists?
Depends on what you're looking for really. EK isn't just viable, in many ways it's stronger than the Magus. Properly built, it has a the same or better BAB and full casting. It lacks some of the more interesting class abilities of the Magus, however, and takes longer to really take off
Really, a Magus is a Fighter who gave up some direct combat ability to be able to cast spells, while an EK is a caster who's learned to fight effectively if needed.
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Depends on what you're looking for really. EK isn't just viable, in many ways it's stronger than the Magus.
Not so many ways, really. The only advantage EK has over Magus is getting 7th to 9th level spells, if your campaign reaches level fifteen in the first place. Even at those levels, the Magus has better saves, a higher to-hit bonus due to his enchant weapon ability, better AC with armored casting, and an action economy advantage from spell combat.
Basically, a Magus is a true gish. An eldritch knight is a wizard with a sword in his hand. If you want a melee/caster hybrid (like the proposed ettin) then Magus is hands-down better for the job.
An eldritch knight is a wizard with a sword in his hand. If you want a melee/caster hybrid (like the proposed ettin) then Magus is hands-down better for the job.
You could give the Ettin the Eldritch Knight prestige class and use the variant multiclass option for Magus if you really want to spellstrike.
Depends on what you're looking for really. EK isn't just viable, in many ways it's stronger than the Magus.Not so many ways, really. The only advantage EK has over Magus is getting 7th to 9th level spells, if your campaign reaches level fifteen in the first place. Even at those levels, the Magus has better saves, a higher to-hit bonus due to his enchant weapon ability, better AC with armored casting, and an action economy advantage from spell combat.
Basically, a Magus is a true gish. An eldritch knight is a wizard with a sword in his hand. If you want a melee/caster hybrid (like the proposed ettin) then Magus is hands-down better for the job.
I did, indeed, note that a EK is mainly a wizard in the last line of my post. And I would count 7th 8th and 9th level spells, as well as a much expanded spell list, as being many ways simply because of sheer versatility and power inherent in said spells. Personally, I agree that in this case the Magus is the better thematic choice (and my preferred gish in general). I was simply pointing out that yes, EK is an extremely viable class in and of its own right.
I don't have much advice to give, I just wanted to point out that you're basically building Cho'gall.
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Is there any other melee caster prestige classes i like the idea of one head having levels in melee and one of the head have levels in a caster and the heads are smart enough to work together to make one fighting unit. The story is that this ettin is naturally smart and figured out that he could amass an army with his power. Now he's a warlord raiding villages and forcing the men to fight for him and collect resources and valuables so he can start his own empire. Then he will start raiding cities and kingdoms. Maybe there's a class that fits that flavorfully i want him to be able to cast spells(Divine or Arcane) and fight in melee other than that I'm willing to change any aspect of his build.
Well, one thing you could do is make the Ettin a gestalt character. In effect he has two classes simultaneously, gaining the better HD, better BAB, better save of each type, better skill points per level, and class skills, features, abilities, weapons and armor proficiency and spellcasting of both classes. I think, although don't quote me on this, that it counts as +1CR. You could do something like Magus/Slayer for something nasty. Or, if you're willing to use third party, Dreamscarred press' Warder/Psion would be very powerful indeed.
He could be the eldritch scion archetype. It's under advanced class guide. They use charisma instead of intelligence making that stat easier. If memory serves than they also are spontaneous casters. I think this might be a better fit than vanilla magus.