Advanced weapon training "Fighter's Finesse" + unchained rogue

[Taggerung559]

So, according to the weapon master's handbook, once you hit level 9 as a fighter, rather than taking more groups for weapon training, you can instead pick one of several "advanced weapon trainings" for the groups you already have, including Fighter's finesse, which says "The fighter gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with all melee weapons that belong to the associated fighter weapon group (even if they cannot normally be used with Weapon Finesse)".

Now, if you were to then take 3 levels of unchained rogue, could you for finesse training pick one of the weapons from Fighter's finesse that can't normally be used with weapon finesse to get dex to damage with, say, a greatclub? Effectively, when finesse training says to "select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse", does it mean one type of weapon that YOU can use with weapon finesse, or one type that can normally used with weapon finesse?

I know this is kind of a corner case since you'd need to be level 12 to pull it off, but it could make for some interesting high level npcs. And if this is the wrong place to post such a question I apologize.

[Ashram]

Yep, everything seems legal here. The wording for Finesse Training is "A weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse". You're treated as being able to use Weapon Finesse with weapons that you normally wouldn't thanks to Fighter's Finesse, so as long as you have that, Finesse Training works fine.

[Imbicatus]

Considering you could do the same thing at a much earlier level if you just used a two-handed finesse weapon like a curve blade or branch spear, it's balanced. I'd still expect table variation though.

[Melkiador]

Or you could wield a slashing polearm in one hand at 3rd level as a phalanx archetype and then use slashing grace to finesse it.

[Imbicatus]

Melkiador wrote:

Or you could wield a slashing polearm in one hand at 3rd level as a phalanx archetype and then use slashing grace to finesse it.

Expect table variation on this. Just because you are using an ability wield a weapon in one hand, doesn't mean it is a one handed weapon.

[Melkiador]

Imbicatus wrote:

Melkiador wrote:

Or you could wield a slashing polearm in one hand at 3rd level as a phalanx archetype and then use slashing grace to finesse it.

Expect table variation on this. Just because you are using an ability wield a weapon in one hand, doesn't mean it is a one handed weapon.

I was paraphrasing.

Quote:

Phalanx Fighting (Ex): At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon. This ability replaces armor training 1.

Edit: But this combo does still require a 1 level dip in swashbuckler.

[Taggerung559]

The phalanx fighter lets you use it as a one-handed weapon, but the weapon itself is still a two-handed weapon as Imbicatus said and thus not legal for slashing grace. At least that is how I've always seen it. And while you can do this normally with an elven curved blade and branched spear (and I have), this would be either for the hilarity factor of getting dex to damage with something like a warhammer or a large bastard sword or something, or for a reach+trip build, so I could use a fauchard (branched spear gets the reach, but not the trip feature, and I like large crit ranges, and getting a massive dex to fuel combat reflexes would be nice for lots of AoOs). Both niche uses, and would need to be on a character who starts around that level, so mostly fuel for thought.

[Aelryinth]

I think the fact you can easily get dex to damage with a morningstar or pick, but not a mace or warhammer is very strange, indeed.

==Aelryinth

[Imbicatus]

Aelryinth wrote:

I think the fact you can easily get dex to damage with a morningstar or pick, but not a mace or warhammer is very strange, indeed.

==Aelryinth

You can't easily get dex to damage with a morningstar or pick. You can finesse both as a swashbuckler, but because they are piercing weapons that aren't rapiers, they don't qualify for slashing grace or fencing grace.

[Blakmane]

From the FAQ:

"An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects."

So, you should be able to use the phalanx fighter's ability to apply slashing grace.

[Taggerung559]

Except that faq was specifically for the bastard sword, which regularly changes between a one and two handed weapon.

[Taggerung559]

Another way you could look at it is that so long as you are wielding the weapon that way, it counts as a one-handed weapon, so you could then use slashing grace with it, but you can't actually take the feat, since the weapon is normally two-handed and thus not a legal option for slashing grace unless you are spending your entire life holding a polearm and shield.

I know I am taking a very legalistic reading of it, but that is how my table tends to run. There will be table variation.

[GeneticDrift]

Technically fighters can gain advance weapon training via the feat at 5th level. The Weapon master archetype can gain it starting at at 4th level. So no need to be 9th level.

Also fighters can finess a great sword, and get bonus damage from an other advanced weapon training. I love this.

[Entryhazard]

Taggerung559 wrote:

Except that faq was specifically for the bastard sword, which regularly changes between a one and two handed weapon.

Only if you ignore the two preceding sentences

[Gwen Smith]

Entryhazard wrote:

Taggerung559 wrote:

Except that faq was specifically for the bastard sword, which regularly changes between a one and two handed weapon.

Only if you ignore the two preceding sentences

A more general FAQ is this one, which says when you wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, treat it as a one-handed weapon.