Dagger + Longbow

[ckdragons]

Can a character have a dagger in one hand and a longbow in the other, with a BAB +6 or higher, throw the dagger and then fire their longbow on their 2nd/3rd/etc attacks, as part of a full-round attack action?

[Blakmane]

I don't see why not. Their hand is free after the dagger has been thrown.

Although, is there any advantage to this over simply dropping the dagger as a free action and then full attacking with the longbow?

I believe you could not, however, use a dagger and a longbow to TWF via this strategy.

[Vrischika111]

unless you have quick draw

[Byakko]

Yes, that works.

But don't try to combine TWF with this tactic, as that doesn't work for complicated reasons.

[Vrischika111]

Byakko>
would you mind to extrapolate why it wouldn't work?
(based on the assumption that you do have quick draw for the dagger drawing)

[Winterschuh]

TWF does not work with any two-handed action anywhere in the attack chain.
For the same reason you cannot TWF a greatsword and armor spikes

[Qaianna]

Vrischika111 wrote:

Byakko>

would you mind to extrapolate why it wouldn't work?
(based on the assumption that you do have quick draw for the dagger drawing)

The main reason is that all bows are two-handed weapons, and Thou Shalt Not Use Thy Twohander with Two-Weapon Fighting.

Let's say you have BAB +6/+1. You hold your bow in your right hand and your dagger in your left. Whether you stab or chuck that dagger, that uses up your left hand's +6; it doesn't have that available to put towards your bow's attack. And if you just shoot the bow, you use up both hands' +6 on that attack, leaving the +1 for after-shooting things.

Unless you have a really, really neat dagger, you may be better off just shooting with the bow for your repeat attacks, relying on a dagger (or other light/one-hander) for if someone comes within 5' to disagree with your archery.

[Vrischika111]

(I was aware of the melee ruling, but in my mind it was to prevent having more than 1.5 Str bonus per round)

so in my mind, the bow+Dagger (using 1/2 Str for the dagger) was not affected by those rulings

but I've re-read the rulings and the equipment definition and bows use the same terminology than 2H weapons (except for the Str bonus)...

too bad then and thanks for the help.

[Byakko]

Vrischika111:

The guys above me covered most of it, but the fuller answer is that it doesn't work due to the semi-unwritten "hands of effort" rules, largely presented and discussed in lengthy forum posts by paizo staff.

The easiest way to think about it is that every attack you make which requires you to use two hands, whether it's a two-handed weapon or a bow or whatever, consumes both one primary hand's and one off-hand's worth of effort.

Generally, this means you can't combine two-handed attacks with two weapon fighting.

------

However, note that if you have +6 BAB and ITWF, you COULD do the following (hopefully this isn't confusing!):

Attack with your bow at +6 BAB
Drop the bow and quick draw a sword and dagger
Attack with the sword at +1 BAB
Attack with the dagger at +1 BAB

The reason this is possible is that the first bow attack only consumes your first primary hand's and off-hand's worth of effort, leaving a second primary hand and a second off-hand attack available for the following attacks.

[Chess Pwn]

Byakko wrote:

Vrischika111:

The guys above me covered most of it, but the fuller answer is that it doesn't work due to the semi-unwritten "hands of effort" rules, largely presented and discussed in lengthy forum posts by paizo staff.

The easiest way to think about it is that every attack you make which requires you to use two hands, whether it's a two-handed weapon or a bow or whatever, consumes both one primary hand's and one off-hand's worth of effort.

Generally, this means you can't combine two-handed attacks with two weapon fighting.

------

However, note that if you have +6 BAB and ITWF, you COULD do the following (hopefully this isn't confusing!):

Attack with your bow at +6 BAB
Drop the bow and quick draw a sword and dagger
Attack with the sword at +1 BAB
Attack with the dagger at +1 BAB

The reason this is possible is that the first bow attack only consumes your first primary hand's and off-hand's worth of effort, leaving a second primary hand and a second off-hand attack available for the following attacks.

Currently the rule is, Use two hands? Can't 2wf at all.

Then one of the designers said that he'd probably houserule what you are suggesting, that you can 2wf later and using a 2hw only used 1 off-hand.

[Byakko]

Chess Pwn:

I've been trying to re-find that thread/post where that was discussed. Do you have it handy?

I believe that same thread also had a post stating that the FAQ only covered the base case, and that at higher levels more complex options are available that go beyond the example given in the FAQ (such as my example).

It also certainly didn't seem to be presented as a house rule by any means.