So I have a campaign coming up with a rather generic story about a rebellion against a tyrannical king. There's more too it then that, but this is all you need to know. We're the rebellion, everyone else is working for the king or general citizens.
I'm looking to build a character around flavor and optimization, but I only want to optimize in one thing: I want to be incredibly good at manipulation. Whether it be magical, skill, or some sort of supernatural fix. Illusions might fit in here, but I'm not sure. I'd prefer to avoid cleric unless I can figure a way to make it more interesting as I don't like them, but there's so many choices I'm having a hard time choosing what would be the most fun.
Note this character is not meant to be optimized in every aspect, and I am willing to throw anything else out the window in combat. This is not a minmax campaign, so unless the character would instantly die, I'm willing to play a character who sucks at anything else, if not everything else.
The prerequisites of this character are he must be human or one of the elemental or infernal/celestial races sometimes born late into a human bloodline, as per the backstory I'm going for. He will be a bastard son of the king born out of wedlock. His mother having fallen ill, despite the fact he's eccentric, over the top and odd person, he began to use manipulative skills he gained either through charisma, magic, or some other means in order to help take care of her and himself. Not only ill, they were definitely impoverished. As time went on, poverty was no longer a problem due to his abilities, but his mother succumbed to illness and age and died unloved except for him. He, of course, blames the king. He shall not be telling the party about this, instead giving them a different reasonable form of motivation for being involved as it is personal. His real goal, of course being justice and/or revenge for him and his mother, and possibly the throne.
He need not be incredibly combat viable in terms of 'damage'. He tends to avoid that if he can. Also, I'd like to eventually find a way to avoid discern lies at higher levels if he's going off bluff skill, which is what I prefer over intimidate. Diplomacy would be a backup.
You might consider a mesmerist. Try looking up the iconic mesmerist, Meligaster - he works along much the same lines as what you're looking for.
The Mesmerist from Occult Adventures sounds like what you're looking for. Not only does he get all the good enchantment/manipulation spells and skills, his stare ability penalizes Will saves to help them land easier.
You might consider a mesmerist.
I don't know to much about the mesmerist. Is there any way to specialize him? I'm looking at archetypes right now. I don't see many tricks that aren't centered around combat and/or combat buffs though.
His spells look pretty good, but is he viable considerring they only go up to level six and then everything else is based off tricks?
The bulk of Pathfinder's focus is combat, so that's naturally what most options will center around. Here is a link to a guide for the class - hopefully it helps you find what you're looking for!
The bulk of Pathfinder's focus is combat, so that's naturally what most options will center around. Here is a link to a guide for the class - hopefully it helps you find what you're looking for!
I've built classes entirely focused around skill monkeying and nothing else, so I'd like to believe there's ways to focus on particular roleplaying focuses as opposed to combat.
I don't play in campaigns where combat>RP unless I plan to play something really really ridiculous, because then you get boring gamebreaking nonsense that ruins immersion :\
Though now that I've spotted glibness on the mesmermist, I think I can make this work.
EDIT: Thank you for the guide, but when designing characters like this I don't use them cause they value combat effectiveness over fun flavor. And also any ability they label as 'situational' in guides might not be situational in our campaigns since my DM utilizes a little of everything for variety.
He'll have an insane Bluff score thanks to Consummate Liar, plus a ton of enchantment spells. In combat, he can use implanted tricks to help his allies, and his stare to debuff enemies and let his allies do a little extra damage.
Can you be more specific about what you'd like him to do?
The bulk of Pathfinder's focus is combat, so that's naturally what most options will center around. Here is a link to a guide for the class - hopefully it helps you find what you're looking for!I've built classes entirely focused around skill monkeying and nothing else, so I'd like to believe there's ways to focus on particular roleplaying focuses as opposed to combat.
I don't play in campaigns where combat>RP unless I plan to play something really really ridiculous, because then you get boring gamebreaking nonsense that ruins immersion :\
Though now that I've spotted glibness on the mesmermist, I think I can make this work.
EDIT: Thank you for the guide, but when designing characters like this I don't use them cause they value combat effectiveness over fun flavor. And also any ability they label as 'situational' in guides might not be situational in our campaigns since my DM utilizes a little of everything for variety.
Definitely not saying combat is or should be the end-all-be-all; just saying it's what tends to get most of the time and effort in game development. I prefer RP, too. And "situational" just means there's particular circumstances where they can be helpful - and you're lucky enough to be in those circumstances. :)
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A manupulative character is only as good as the player who's playing him.
If you as a person aren't chatty and can't improvise a good bluff, no rolls will make your character a remembered character.
Especially for social characters the skills/numbers only support the players behaviour.
So I have a campaign coming up with a rather generic story about a rebellion against a tyrannical king. There's more too it then that, but this is all you need to know. We're the rebellion, everyone else is working for the king or general citizens.
I'm looking to build a character around flavor and optimization, but I only want to optimize in one thing: I want to be incredibly good at manipulation. Whether it be magical, skill, or some sort of supernatural fix. Illusions might fit in here, but I'm not sure. I'd prefer to avoid cleric unless I can figure a way to make it more interesting as I don't like them, but there's so many choices I'm having a hard time choosing what would be the most fun.
Note this character is not meant to be optimized in every aspect, and I am willing to throw anything else out the window in combat. This is not a minmax campaign, so unless the character would instantly die, I'm willing to play a character who sucks at anything else, if not everything else.
The prerequisites of this character are he must be human or one of the elemental or infernal/celestial races sometimes born late into a human bloodline, as per the backstory I'm going for. He will be a bastard son of the king born out of wedlock. His mother having fallen ill, despite the fact he's eccentric, over the top and odd person, he began to use manipulative skills he gained either through charisma, magic, or some other means in order to help take care of her and himself. Not only ill, they were definitely impoverished. As time went on, poverty was no longer a problem due to his abilities, but his mother succumbed to illness and age and died unloved except for him. He, of course, blames the king. He shall not be telling the party about this, instead giving them a different reasonable form of motivation for being involved as it is personal. His real goal, of course being justice and/or revenge for him and his mother, and possibly the throne.
He need not be incredibly combat viable in...
Two of my favorite choices for this kind of thing come to mind.
1. Asmodean Advocate (cleric archetype)
Dump all your skill ranks into Profession: barrister
Use that for all your Bluff and Diplomacy Checks.
You also get a viper familiar who can also use barrister to bluff and diplomance.
Profession relies on wisdom, boost wisdom, you are now really good at getting your spells to do more damage and are harder to resist.
2. Inquisitor.(heretic)
He can use his wisdom modifier in addition to his stealth and bluff I think?
He also has 3 different inqusitions that boost bluff/intimidate/diplomacy based on his wisdom score.
(conversion, heresy, reformation)
In addition, high wisdom helps with the same as above(damage, DC)
Also inquistors use wisdom in addition to their class abilities and Initiative.
Why should Cha characters get all the good persuasion abilities? :)
How come the word "Bard" hasn't fallen yet?
How come the word "Bard" hasn't fallen yet?
I think Mesmerist trumps the Bard here. They are very similar and even have similar lists. Where the Bard is a buffer, a Mesmerist is a debuffer. Even though they only gain 6th level spells, the will penalty from stares more than makes up for the lower save DC.
You might also want to consider the Master Spy prestige class after you meet the preqs (need the feats Deceitful and Iron Will, as well as 7 ranks in Bluff and Disguise and 5 ranks in Perception and Sense Motive). At level 2, you can mask your alignment and get an ability that lets you deceive truth-detecting magic.
Dipping into rogue a bit might not be a bad idea either, as there are several talents that are pretty good with helping deception, and if you take the spy archetype, it also lets you add 1/2 your class level to Bluff.
I'm actually considering the same thing. I was curious how much bluff I could get by lv. 5 and what I could do with it. Here's what I got. Note... major cheese and optimization to push bluff.
Human 1 inquisitor / 1 synthesis summoner / 3 charlatan rogue (or whichever archetype it was that gives rumor monger by lv. 3) with conversion inquisition and the silver tongue alternative racial trait.
Bluff: 5 ranks + 3 claws bonus + 5 Wis + 5 conversion inq. + 8 skilled evolution + 3 skill focus + 2 deceptive (or whichever feat it is that gives +2 to bluff) + 2 from that one trait involving friends +2 silver tongue = +35 to bluff. If you get the mask of stony demeanor, that's +45 to bluff.
Add that +45 to bluff to rumormongering, a high linguistics score and you can have a whole lot of fun and chaos. If you're creative, you may not need to fight physically all that often.
Plus, you'd have at least a +20 in diplomacy and one feat slot open.
Edit: oh and of course the the convincing lies rogue talent.
Edit 2: infiltrator inquisitor, my bad. However, if rainy day is correct, it'd be a measly +40 to bluff (+30 if you wish to forgo the mask of stony demeanor). Still pretty solid in my book.
For what it's worth, you can't double-dip Wis like that according to a recent-ish FAQ.
Demagogue Bard is a fantastic archetype for this...turns people against whatever you like and starts the fires no problem. Has the Charisma to pull off being manipulative and good at social interactions too. Has the skills to back it up, the escape mechanisms and an apt spell list to strengthen his role.
Gnome -that boost to illusion is no joke and lends itself well to Illusionist/Bard builds! I also agree with the Mesmerist advice already given. Are you sure you do not want to play a modified Meligaster just looking at your summary? Or perhaps trying out that new upcoming Vigilante class since the theme is revenge/secrecy?
When it comes to deception in RPGs I just let roleplaying do most of the work and use dice to confirm key moments, such as the crucial point where the diplomacy check has to be made to apply the strength of your argument, or the bluff check when the DM HAS to call you on the audacity/scope of your deception.
Unless the DM is some absolute RAW purist, a very charismatic display on part of the Player/PC should garner modifiers to checks. Just watch out for the hamminess to come out from Drama Queens.
Its a cathartic moment for the whole table when your PC gambles away everyone's life in one big farcical tale and that Nat 20 is granted to you by your deity. Mine came from convincing the assembled Goblinoid leaders that one of our PCs was their "Divine Madonna" courtesy of her accidentally in possession of a cultural artifact we looted from other looters who got there before we did. Double points that she didn't speak Goblin and could not understand the double con I was pulling on both the NPCs and PCs.
Next level that Player invested points into most basic racial languages to be encountered in that environment.
The bulk of Pathfinder's focus is combat, so that's naturally what most options will center around. Here is a link to a guide for the class - hopefully it helps you find what you're looking for!I've built classes entirely focused around skill monkeying and nothing else, so I'd like to believe there's ways to focus on particular roleplaying focuses as opposed to combat.
I don't play in campaigns where combat>RP unless I plan to play something really really ridiculous, because then you get boring gamebreaking nonsense that ruins immersion :\
Though now that I've spotted glibness on the mesmermist, I think I can make this work.
EDIT: Thank you for the guide, but when designing characters like this I don't use them cause they value combat effectiveness over fun flavor. And also any ability they label as 'situational' in guides might not be situational in our campaigns since my DM utilizes a little of everything for variety.
The thing about psychic casters like mesmerist is that, rather than somatic and verbal components, they ahve emotional and...thought? I forget the specifics. Anyway, the point is that their spells are like stilled, silent spells (only they get it for free since they have their own bags of worms to deal with- expect to see a lot more intimidation checks).
With cunning caster, you can cast these spells without anyone noticing, since you lack somatic and verbal components. Just amke a bluff check (for a cha caster, with a class skill, with a large scaling bonus to bluff, and the deceitful prerequisite on top...) and no one can even tell you are casting anything.
So as far as RP goes...being able to toss out illusions and enchantments without people having the reasonable expectation of 'wait, didn't he just cast a spell? He is trying to trick me!' seems like a big deal. You could easily do things like fake ghosts (ghost sound and minor image- hell, I think it can even avoid the save for interacting since they are already incorporeal) in order to manipulate people. (sure, ghost sounds isn't good for words...just do wailing, and have the ghost point at someone- easy way to frame them for murder)
And this can be done from level 1 with a human. So no long delay before you can pull off your build's whole shtick. And hardly any wasted resources, allowing you not to have to choose between RP and battle
As a note- guide are not all about battle (although it is an inescapable focus given the system). Particularly with casters, there are plenty of ways to avoid problems entirely. So I wouldn't write them off so easily. You can find all sorts of neat tricks if you go digging.
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The Mastermind archetype for the Investigator is another option. They get free inspiration for Diplomacy and Intimidate checks. This archetype can stack with Empiricist, so a lot of your skills (including UMD and Sense Motive) could be run off of Intelligence. They also get defenses against divination and can't have their thoughts read unless the person probing them can speak EVERY language they can. The alchemy doesn't let you use illusions, but alchemy infusion get you some nice spells, and you can always UMD wands. Mesmerist is a great choice though.