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Court Bard Concept - Theorycrafting Fun!

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First I have to pay tribute where tribute is due. This is originally (as far as I know) a Jiggy concept.

This was what he said for the build concept:

Spoiler:

• Court Bard gets the opposite of Inspire Courage, using performance to cause enemies to take penalties to attack/damage. Let's say he's using Perform (oratory), so basically he tells people how much they suck, and they get thrown off their game.
• Then he hits 2nd level and picks up Versatile Performance, letting him use Perform (oratory) in place of Diplomacy and Sense Motive. Now he can use Antagonize (via Perform) to tell people how much they suck, and they're preoccupied to the point of an additional -2 against everyone else (-3 total).
• Then you pick up Snake Style, letting you use an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check and treat the result as your AC against one attack. But you have Versatile Performance, so you're using Perform (oratory) instead. So when someone does attack you, you tell them how much they suck, and they blow it and miss.
So the sum total is this: you start telling everyone how much they suck, and they're all messed up. Then you single out one guy to inform of his mother's disappointment in him, and he becomes to preoccupied to attack anyone effectively but you. But then when he does attack you, you mock him until his sobs throw his aim off.
A**hattery for fun and profit! ;)

I really like the idea of this build but am wondering how I would go about building it. And honestly past level 3 I am a bit lost on which way to go with it.

I wonder if anyone has tried anything like this before and how they went about it. One concern is how to pick up Snake Style without having to spend a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike. Bards don't get bonus feats and I had some thoughts of other feats I was considering anyway.

The concept also lacks what the character can do in combat after they have got done making fun of everyone and the baddy gets up in their face. Yeah, they can sit there and not get hit but how can they actively contribute to victory? I get that this isn't their primary role but I was considering some things. The concept has a lot of potential as just buffing and debuffing.

Here are some feats I was considering:
Bodyguard (which requires Combat Reflexes)
Arcane Strike +Gloves of Arcane Striking
Swift Aid (Ugh... requires Combat Expertise)
...the rest of the Snake Style feats
Snake Style seems like it would work well with the Whip, so... the Whip Mastery feats
And... if going Whip there are always the Trip line of feats.

Yeah, that is a lot of feats so I guess I should stop there. I mean... Cornugon Smash + Shatter Defenses would be great for this too but that is a crap ton of feats. I don't even know how combat focused I want to make the guy. Like I said, a bit lost past 3rd level.

What do you guys think?

I will say that the dirty fighting feat you can find here

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat

May alleviate your combat expertise woes.

That is true. I did think of that but didn't post it. Honestly its half a dozen of one and 6 of another. Its a feat either way and I was likely going for a high Dex build anyway.

I did think of something else though. This build would work very nicely with a Flowing Monk. I think I am settled on it, in fact.

Yep. Deflect Arrows works really well with the build. Or I could get Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. That would take care of needing to spend feats on Improved Unarmed Strike and Combat Reflexes.

I don't think I would take Monk past 3rd. Actually I would probably jump off at 2nd as Flowing Dodge doesn't help a lot when using Snake Style.

Perhaps. I was more thinking it allowed you to go past 3rd level with what you may have planned. There's a lot of feats you need to get taxed in its a good start.

There could also be a masterpiece t b at may help you. Once that FAQ comes in to let you do both.

Court bard is great though. Party wide +1 ac and DR 1 is basically what you hand out. People would pay a lot for that.

Maybe also look into fear spells. You give a penalty

Sorry, I ninja edited my last post.
Dark Archive

This is an amazing concept. I would be a Tengu and get the claws alt
racial trait. You count as having unarmed strike for feats(like snake style). Also, Raven mocking people? Straight out of mythology.
Dark Archive

You'll be maxing out perform so some time down the road pick up skill focus. I know you have a huge feat list, but you'll be untouchable.

Hot damn, that is a good concept, KoboldKhemist. I think I'll leave that one to you, though.

I was thinking of going Half-Elf so I could get Skill Focus that way. Or I could go Human for the Alternate Racial Trait. Honestly, I think he is going to be untouchable anyway. Hell, even a Circlet of Persuasion will be ridiculous for his AC.

Hm... Halfling for the Size bonuses and Dex/Cha?

Dangit, you know this build is going to need Weapon Finesse too...
Dark Archive

This will take a while to build effectively. I would save it for higher level campaigns.

Nah. It will be fairly effective all the way through. It hits it's power bump around level 3-5. I'll throw a build together soon and post it. ...maybe tomorrow.

Yeah, the Court Bard is generally underappreciated. Satire is a broad-spectrum debuff that ignores SR and cannot be saved against. As noted, it's like giving +1 AC and +1 DR to everyone around you, *and* it's also giving an effective +1 spell DC to your casters. It does have the disadvantage that it's mind-affecting, so it doesn't work against golems and oozes and such. Also, it requires you to get within 30' of the enemy, which can be slightly flinch-inducing if you're squish. So while we might think of court bards as delicate souls in fancy dress, in fact it's actually a better archetype for combat bards... anyway, it's still very good, and I'm surprised it doesn't get more love.

As to this particular build, I do see another problem: action economy. Until you reach 7th level as a bard, starting a performance is a standard. And Antagonize is always a standard. So it takes two rounds for this guy to get up to speed.

Meanwhile, as you say, it's a lot of feats to make this shine. I agree that the simplest way (other than the tengu build above) is to be human and dip a couple of levels of either monk or fighter. Monk is more flexible and has better saves. However, fighter allows you to have a respectable AC for those moments when Snake Style fails you. Remember, Snake Style only guards against one attack per round. If you've antagonized a dragon or a marilith or some other whirlwhind-of-death multiattacker, you'll want a real AC. There are also some tricks you could play with fighter archetypes. For instance, play a Polearm Master and hang back behind the rest of the party. When you antagonize the monster and it rushes you, everyone gets AoOs -- and so do you, because you're rocking a reach weapon. Anyway, either way, you'll get two free feats.

Doug M.

Okay, here's a build using Polearm Master fighter. I'd never claim this is an optimized build, but it's very playable and should be fun. It's slightly MADdy, but just keep your Str and Cha up and you should be fine.

1 Human Polearm Master fighter; Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes, Antagonize

-- Unarmed Strike is a feat tax unless you're in tavern brawls or something, but you'll get immediate use out of the other two. Combat Reflexes with a reach weapon is great fun against packs of goblins and the like. Antagonize suffers from the fact that it requires a standard but when the enemy rushes you it eats an AoO, so it's a wash -- and better he attack you than the squishy wizard or rogue.

2 Fighter 2; Bodyguard

-- Would be nice to take Snake Style here but it requires three skill ranks. Anyway, at this level you're a perfectly good melee character. You'll make your Bodyguard roll about 80% of the time, so the other PCs will tend to huddle around you. That's fine; you have a long pointy stick and can protect them.

3 Court Bard 1; Snake Style

-- Satire+Bodyguard means that everyone adjacent to you is effectively +3 AC and DR 1, which is pretty sweet, and Antagonize boosts that to +5 AC if the enemy wants to attack them instead of you. Note that you must drop three ranks in Sense Motive as a prerequisite for Snake Style. A bit annoying because under RAW they'll be wasted ranks once you get Versatile Performance, but there it is. Many DMs allow bards to swap out ranks in the skills that VP replaces; check with yours.

4 Bard 2

-- And Versatile Performance kicks in and you're off to the races. Note that this build is explicitly a team player. You want other characters around you to get the benefit of your Satire and Bodyguard abilities, and to pile AoOs on the bad guys you are Antagonizing. Ideally you stay 5' behind another melee guy, perform, Antagonize, give your buddies a Bodyguard bonus, and poke the enemy with your long pointy stick thing. When the enemy comes at you, free attack, followed by Snake Style to keep you safe. Drawbacks: Satire and Antagonize don't work against mindless things, your polearm is less good against creatures with reach. Make sure your wizard chum picks up Enlarge Person at some point.

Your 5th level feat will of course be Skill Focus: Perform (Oratory). If you take one more level of fighter, you get Steadfast Pike and another feat. That pretty much ganks you as a caster, and you don't get to perform as a move action until 10th level, but it might be worth it.

Doug M.

While I can definitely see the advantages of using a reach weapon for a build like this I think I am going to skip it for a couple of reasons. You need to be adjacent to your ally for bodyguard and to the enemy for the later snake style feats. And because those depend on unarmed strike that is going to be my weapon of choice.

Also, having bodyguard lends itself to having a high Dex so I had planned on getting weapon finesse. There are few finessable reach weapons and none that I care to use in this build. I had considered whip but that is difficult in an already feat starved build.

In fact, I'm already trying to figure out how to fit weapon finesse in without depriving or delaying other key feats.

I'm thinking of going Halfling with stats something like this:

Str 15-2
Dex 14+2
Con 12
Int 9
Wis 10
Cha 15+2

Taking Court Bard for 2 levels, Flowing Monk for 2 levels and then the rest Court Bard.

And taking feats something like this:
Antagonize 1st
Combat Reflexes (bonus)
Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus)
Snake Style 3rd
Bodyguard 5th
Arcane Strike 7th
Snake Sidewind 9th
Snake Fang 11th

At 12th level that would give me:
+8 BAB
Fort: 6 Ref: 10 Will: 10
1 level short of getting Satire up to -3 and Mockery up to -4.
1 4th level spell known.
Passable HP.
Pretty good skills.

I had also been considering going Half-Elf for the free skill focus but decided I liked the +1 size bonus to hit and AC more.

Also considered going Human and taking Weapon Finesse as the bonus feat. The problem is that Weapon Finesse is a lot more appealing to small races where Str is a lost cause and you get a bonus to Dex anyway. With Human and any medium sized race it loses it's luster.

Also considered throwing in a level of Swashbuckler to get Weapon Finesse (it works with your piercing Snake Style Unarmed Strikes) but decided that is watering down the Bard levels too much.
Lune wrote:
While I can definitely see the advantages of using a reach weapon for a build like this I think I am going to skip it for a couple of reasons. You need to be adjacent to your ally for bodyguard and to the enemy for the later snake style feats.

? Not sure I follow. If the enemy doesn't have reach, either he's not adjacent to you (in which case he can't hit you) or he eats an AoO to get close to you (and now you can use Snake Style against him). If he does have 10' reach... that's why I mentioned Enlarge Person. As to being adjacent to your allies, a reach weapon makes that *better* -- you can have allies all around you and still attack.

The later snake style feats: most style feats come in trios and follow a pattern where the first feat is okay, the second one is very meh, and the third one is amazing. Snake Style slightly breaks the pattern in that the first feat is perfectly good by itself. The second one is definitely meh -- it's a bonus to critfishing with your unarmed strike, but an unarmed strike is the worst possible thing to use for critfishing; it only threatens on a 20, only does x2 damage, and doesn't do that much damage to begin with.

Snake Fang can be pretty sweet, yes, especially with Antagonize.

Doug M.
Lune wrote:


And taking feats something like this:
Antagonize 1st
Combat Reflexes (bonus)
Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus)
Snake Style 3rd
Bodyguard 5th
Arcane Strike 7th
Snake Sidewind 9th
Snake Fang 11th

Okay. At low levels your AC is not going to be amazing -- leather armor, dex and size equals 16 -- so you probably want to stand behind the fighter so he can get AoOs. A rank in Diplomacy gives you +7, so you have about about an 80% chance of Antagonizing a typical first level opponent. Because of action economy and Satire’s short range, the decision whether to use Satire, Antagonize, or both (and if so in what order) will be tactically interesting throughout your career. Meanwhile, you might as well drop ranks into Sense Motive at low levels -- it'll help with the pre-Antagonize insight check, and you need 3 ranks in it for Snake Style anyway.

If you're going Court Bard for the first two levels, then you don't get any other feats until you dip monk at 3rd level. And then of course you get Improved Unarmed Strike (monk), Combat Reflexes (monk bonus) and Snake Style (3rd level) all at once.

Bodyguard makes sense, but I would really question whether the later Snake Style feats are worth the bother. If you're using Unarmed Strike to fight, you're doing a base d4+1 damage. Arcane Strike gives you another +1 damage, rising to +2 at 9th level, and... that's it before buffs or items. Your flurry is at -1 BAB and you won't get iterative attacks until 9th level. So Snake Sidewind is almost worthless -- at 9th level and up, critfishing to gain another d4+3 is hardly worth bothering -- and even Snake Fang is less good; yes you may get one or two attacks if an opponent misses you, but they'll be weak attacks that don't do much harm. -- To be fair, I do see the appeal of Snake Fang from a coolness POV. You taunt the monster, it ignores your allies and attacks you, you avoid its strike with Snake Style and then BAMBAM you pop up and punch it a couple of times in the nose, really fast. That's going to be pretty fun even if it doesn't rack up the damage.

But either way, wouldn't you want to invest in Skill Focus: Perform (Oratory) first? That helps with the pre-Antagonize insight check AND then gives you +3 to your Antagonize roll AND then adds +3 to your Snake Style AC check. Failing the Antagonize roll wastes a round, so should be avoided if possible. And +3 to AC would seem like a pretty high priority.

Incidentally, if you're in a campaign where magic items are pretty easy to pick up or order? Ioun stones. Cracked pink and green sphere gives you a +1 competence bonus on any one skill for just 200 gp. Apply it to Oratory and it's +1 on Antagonize and +1 AC. Cracked magenta prism, exactly the same except the bonus is +2. And it only costs 800 gp! Alas, they don't stack. Still -- pretty sweet if you can get your hands on one.

cheers,

Doug M.

A quick note on the math of Antagonize. At low levels you'll usually succeed on your check. However, at higher levels the target DC (10 + monster HD + Wis bonus) will start to outrun you. At 1st level nonboss DCs are around 10-14, but by 10th level you'll be facing opponents with DCs around 25-32.

The feat cleverly balances this by giving you an "insight" Sense Motive check against a flat DC 20. If you make this, you can add your Cha bonus to your Antagonize roll. (Add it a second time, really.) Now, since a 1 is not an autofail on skill checks, this means that once you hit +19 on Sense Motive -- or, for this build, Oratory -- you just automatically get the bonus. This swings the math well back in your favor. Skill Focus and a +4 Cha item mean you would start doing this without buffs at 8th level.

Doug M.

Douglas, I want to thank you for your advice. It is priceless. However, there are some parts I want to touch on.

I will not be using a reach weapon. If I were going with any Fighter levels then it would be worth considering and I likely would use the same build that you are talking about but would probably put a Bard level first. But as it is I stated for this concept I will be going Bard/Monk. As such there is a grand total of 1 reach weapon (2 if you consider the Boarding Pike but that is fairly obscure) that I could use and it is less than stellar: the Longspear.

The build I am putting forth focuses on Unarmed Strikes just with the feat prerequisites. The way I have it figured I might as well stick with it and it does match the concept I have anyway. I plan on the character being a jester. You don't often see jesters carrying around Longspears. Unarmed Strike seems to mesh well with the concept.

I have dropped the Weapon Finesse part of the build because I just don't have enough feats for it. Oh well, I guess. I am kinda waffling back and forth between Halfling and Half-Elf. I think now I am going to go Half-Elf instead.

That will put perform checks at second level at:
2 Ranks +3 class skill +3 Cha +3 Skill Focus = +11.

This will be usable for Diplomacy (for Antagonize) and Snake Style (for AC) via Versatile Performance with Perform: Oratory.

So an average roll will put it in the low 20s. That is going to succeed against most attacks and the DC for Antagonize at equal or +1 CR for that level. This isn't considering any magic items or skill increasing items. (There are no mundane items that add to Perform: Oratory that I am aware of.) Keep in mind though that a Circlet of Persuasion is going to be a high priority item and that raises it by another +3. At 4th level I will be putting another point into Cha to raise it again and a +2 Cha headband will also be an early purchase. By 4th level that will put the check at +6 higher without spells being added in.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Okay. At low levels your AC is not going to be amazing -- leather armor, dex and size equals 16...

Actually, I think I am going to be forgoing Flurry of Blows in favor of a Mithral Chain Shirt. Flurry is the only thing the character loses by wearing armor since I will never put enough levels into Monk to get Fast Movement or Monk bonus to AC. They way I have it figured I won't often have an opportunity to use Flurry of Blows anyway as I will be doing other things with my turn than attacking. I will more likely be doing that during the enemy's turn. So, that being said I would have about the same AC as you mentioned. But with Satire going it will effectively increase that by one. Snake Style will, of course, make me unhittable for one attack per turn. I will have other ways of increasing AC and survivability as well. More on that later.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Bodyguard makes sense, but I would really question whether the later Snake Style feats are worth the bother. If you're using Unarmed Strike to fight, you're doing a base d4+1 damage. Arcane Strike gives you another +1 damage, rising to +2 at 9th level, and... that's it before buffs or items.

You are missing the other important part of Snake Sidewind - the "+4 bonus to CMD against trip combat maneuvers and on Acrobatics checks and saving throws to avoid being knocked prone." Despite the likely Voldo references I do not perceive this character spending a lot of time fighting on the ground. This helps that with a character who would normally have a fairly low CMD. Still I admit that it is really just a prereq for Snake Fang. But I can't get that until 9th anyway.

I accept that the character will not be winning any awards for high DPS and just let the character excel at it's strengths. With Half-Elf that puts his Unarmed Strike at 1d6+2. At 8th I'll be adding +1 to Strength bumping it up to 1d6+3. The armor that I mentioned I will be wearing earlier will likely be a +1 Glammered (don't want it to interfere with my Jester garb) Benevolent (works well with Bodyguard) Brawling (need this for... everything) Mithral Chain Shirt of Harmonizing (since I couldn't afford to fit Lingering Performance in). For everything except Harmonizing it is 9800. Honestly, Glammered isn't really needed as you can wear a Mithral Chain shirt like clothing anyway. That puts it's price at 7100. That is a steal for bumping Unarmed Strike up to 1d6+5.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Arcane Strike gives you another +1 damage...

And makes it count as magic for bypassing DR. But this isn't the most important part about having Arcane Strike. Gloves of Arcane Striking is. With Helpful trait, Benevolent armor and the gloves that bumps the Bodyguard bonus up to +5.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
To be fair, I do see the appeal of Snake Fang from a coolness POV. You taunt the monster, it ignores your allies and attacks you, you avoid its strike with Snake Style and then BAMBAM you pop up and punch it a couple of times in the nose, really fast. That's going to be pretty fun even if it doesn't rack up the damage.

I know, right? :) But think of this: I will likely be getting +1 Fortuitous Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes. The +1 doesn't stack with that provided by a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists, but the Fortuitous is what I'd be after. Plus it frees up my neck slot for an Amulet of Natural Armor. On the first attack of a creature charging at me I think I would prefer using the Flowing Monk's Redirection ability instead. I can get +4 to my CMB and DC for Sickened if they are both Charging and Power Attacking. And being Sickened, Flat-Footed (from Unbalancing Counter) and Prone is a pretty big debuff when added in with Satire. Plus the way I read Snake Fang I would get the 2 attacks and if I hit with the first I can use the second as a Trip (because Trip is one of the few Combat Maneuvers you can use as an AoO) and get a 3rd attack after the opponent is on the ground via Fortuitous.

Now, think about that visual. I make fun of the stupid Barbarian of questionable parentage to the point of enraging it into a Power Attack Charge. I knee it in the groin putting it on the ground and jump on top of it Nightcrawler in the Xmen arcade game style. :D

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
But either way, wouldn't you want to invest in Skill Focus: Perform (Oratory) first?

Yeah, yeah. You convinced me. Half-Elf it is.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Incidentally, if you're in a campaign where magic items are pretty easy to pick up or order? Ioun stones. Cracked pink and green sphere gives you a +1 competence bonus on any one skill for just 200 gp. Apply it to Oratory and it's +1 on Antagonize and +1 AC. Cracked magenta prism, exactly the same except the bonus is +2. And it only costs 800 gp! Alas, they don't stack. Still -- pretty sweet if you can get your hands on one.

It so happens I was planning on playing it in PFS. Since I own the book those are in and they are allowed I shouldn't have a problem picking them up. Thanx for pointing those out. I will likely be picking them up in order replacing the sphere for the prism. I also plan on getting a Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone (+1 insite to AC) and socketing it into my Wayfinder (that Pathfinders get to purchase for half price) for +2 CMB and CMD. It will compliment the armor I'm wearing quite nicely, don't you think? ;)

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
A quick note on the math of Antagonize.

You missed the Circlet of Persuasion. That should get me auto-succeeding at around 5th level, I believe.

Enlarge Person isn't on a Bard's spell list. I do plan on picking up Use Magic Device though and spending 2 Prestige Points on getting a Wand of it isn't out of the question. There are also Longarm Bracers but I might decide to get Bracers of the Glib Entertainer instead. They don't stack with Circlet of Persuasion though. It is nice to be able to attempt a Trip on the incoming Minotaurs and Ogres though.

Mirror Image also isn't on my spell list but I plan on picking up a wand for that as well. Blur will likely be a staple combat buff as will Heroism. Vanish will definitely be one of my first spells known. Grease will likely be my other.

I will also plan on picking up a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend some time before 6th level. That will help with the combat buffs. I wonder in PFS if you can get a Strand of Prayer Beads with the Smiting bead removed. If so that would allow me to pick it up for 29k.

As for Masterpieces...
The Dance of 23 Steps seems decent especially after 8th level.
I considered Pageant of the Peacock but honestly I think most people consider that Masterpiece annoying beyond reason and I'm not trying to annoy DMs or players... just the bad guy NPCs. ;)
Rat Quadrille could be good but I'm not certain it is worth the trade out of a 2nd level spell known. Maybe at a bit later levels when I have what I want and can afford it.
I always did like Triple Time. Not sure when I will fit it in though.
Those are really the only ones I would consider for this build.

I am trying to decide on Traits for the character. I have narrowed it down to the following list:
Helpful*
Protective Faith
Reactionary
Diplomat
Instigator of Rebellion
Silver Tongued
Patient Optimist
Charming
Extremely Fashionable

*Helpful is pretty much a must-have. I'm fairly certain I am going to go with Extremely Fashionable as well unless I can be convinced that the others are more worthwhile. Actually the Sovereign Court Faction has effectively the same Trait called "Fashionable" and it only costs 80gp. And instead of Intimidate I get a +1 to Sense Motive. That is probably better. But something about being "Extremely Fashionable" rather than just "Fashionable" makes me want to take the other one more. ;)

The Exchange has this:
Upstanding: Your preferred means of doing business involves giving your clients a fair deal and winning their continued business and good will. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks, and one of these skills (your choice) becomes a class skill for you.

Both The Exchange and Sovereign Court have pretty good Faction Journal Card rewards but I think I like Sovereign Court more overall for both the above listed trait and it's Faction Journal Card rewards. Plus it seems more fitting to the character.

Here is what I have for the build thus far:

Str 15
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 9
Wis 10
Cha 15+2

1st
Bard 1
Heraldic Expertise, Bardic Performance, Cantrips, Countersong, Distraction, Fascinate, Satire +1, Skill Focus: Perform (Oratory) (bonus), Antagonize (1st)
2nd
Bard 2
Versatile Performance, Well-Versed
3rd
Monk 1
Combat Reflexes (bonus), Improved Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, Snake Style (3rd)
4th
Monk 2
Evasion, Unbalancing Counter
5th
Bard 3
Mockery -2, Bodyguard (5th)
6th
Bard 4

7th
Bard 5
Satire +2, Wide Audience, Heraldic Expertise: +1 reroll, Arcane Strike (7th)
8th
Bard 6
Suggestion, Versatile Performance
9th
Bard 7
Mockery -3, Snake Sidewind (9th)
10th
Bard 8
Glorious Epic
11th
Bard 9
Inspire Greatness, Snake Fang (11th)
12th
Bard 10
Wide Audience: +10/20, +1 creature

I am trying to figure out if the Wary Alternate Racial Trait is worth it. It gives +1 to Sense Motive and Bluff, but you lose Keen Senses.

Here is some of the gear I would consider for such a character:
Courtier's Outfit or Noble Outfit. Eventually a Royal Outfit.
Signet Ring and other jewelry and fine clothing totally 150gp. (Prestidigitation definitely will be needed to keep clean.)
Battle Mask 50gp
Cracked Pink and Green Sphere Ioun Stone 200
Cracked Magenta Prism Ioun Stone 800
Wayfinder 1PP
Campfire Bead 720
Handy Haversack 2k
Page of Spell Knowledge 1k, 4k
Runestone of Power 2k, 8k
+1 Benevolent Brawling Mithral Chain Shirt of Harmonizing.
100 Chain Shirt
1000 Mithral
2000 Benevolent
4000 +2 Brawling and +1
7100
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend
Circlet of Persuasion 4.5k
Gloves of Arcane Striking 5k
+1 Fortuitous Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes 3k, 12k
Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone 5k

You know, I had thought there was an item that increased your Bardic Performance level but I can't find it. I guess I'm wrong then? Is there anything that exists that raises a Bard's effective level for Bardic Performances?

For this it couldn't be Inspire Courage as that isn't the ability he gets. It has to be broader than that.

Hrm. Just found Intimidating Performance. Hmmmmmm. Is it worth 2 feats to make all of the foes affected by my Satire to also be Shaken? Oh wait... its 3 feats because I would need Weapon Focus as well. Guess I gotta skip it.

Have you considered the concept with 2 levels of court bard and the rest brawler?

It wouldn't ever get the court bard penalties up high, but you are looking at a lot of 'this feat would be cool sometimes' and brawler is great for that. Plus while you wouldn't be a cool a de-buffer, you also wouldn't be as messed up against mindless opponents (or often things you just don't share a language with.)

Plus you would basically be a trash talking pro-wrestler, and who doesn't like that.

Going for more of a jester type than a pro wrestler type. Also, I dislike Brawler. I don't really like the concept of temporary feats. *shrug*

For reference... I didn't read the whole thread. But in the first 5 entries...

You can't take an AoO with a reach weapon from behind an ally.

You can't take an AoO on someone with cover, and reach weapons use the ranged rules for cover.

So, if they come straight at you and your friend keeping the ally between you the whole time, you get nothing.

Hm, good catch, TGMaxMaxer. I guess that is another reason to not go with a reach weapon. I think that Doug may have meant to be behind and to the side but I could be wrong. Still using a reach weapon and needing to be adjacent to an ally for Bodyguard could make positioning awkward. With IUS I wouldn't have to worry about that.
Silver Crusade Contributor

You might find this helpful for your cover woes, assuming you can find a feat slot for it.
TGMaxMaxer wrote:


You can't take an AoO with a reach weapon from behind an ally.

? No one was suggesting this. I said, "stand behind the fighter so HE can get AoOs" (i.e., when your Antagonize enrages the enemy into charging you).

Quote:
You can't take an AoO on someone with cover, and reach weapons use the ranged rules for cover.

That's why Polearm Master. Normally a polearm threatens 10' away but not 5' away. But with PM you can "choke up" and threaten an adjacent square as an immediate action. So you do get an AoO when someone closes in on you (albeit at -4), even if you have a buddy standing in the way.

If you're willing to throw away Bodyguard, this build becomes beautifully tactically flexible. You don't have to stay adjacent to allies, so you float around the battlefield Antagonizing enemies. They charge you, eat two AoOs thanks to Combat Reflexes, and then swing at air thanks to Snake Style. Wield a falchion and go critfishing. Enjoy.

Doug M.
Kalindlara wrote:
You might find this helpful for your cover woes, assuming you can find a feat slot for it.

If I was going with reach I would likely pick that up.

Doug: Falchion isn't a reach weapon.

Also polearms don't seem very jesterish. I won't have proficiency with anything except Longspear anyway. I'm going to take a pass on that part of your suggestion but I recognize that it is effective.
Lune wrote:
The build I am putting forth focuses on Unarmed Strikes just with the feat prerequisites. The way I have it figured I might as well stick with it and it does match the concept I have anyway. I plan on the character being a jester. You don't often see jesters carrying around Longspears. Unarmed Strike seems to mesh well with the concept.

Sure sure. There's a lot to be said for thematic consistency. And this build is about maximizing fun, not damage. (Though it should still be perfectly playable.)

So an average roll will put it in the low 20s. That is going to succeed against most attacks and the DC for Antagonize at equal or +1 CR for that level. This isn't considering any magic items or skill increasing items. (There are no mundane items that add to Perform: Oratory that I am aware of.)

None that I know of either, though the two ioun stones are so cheap they might as well be mundane.

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Actually, I think I am going to be forgoing Flurry of Blows in favor of a Mithral Chain Shirt. Flurry is the only thing the character loses by wearing armor since I will never put enough levels into Monk to get Fast Movement or Monk bonus to AC. They way I have it figured I won't often have an opportunity to use Flurry of Blows anyway as I will be doing other things with my turn than attacking. I will more likely be doing that during the enemy's turn.

I think this makes a lot of sense. You'll almost never be straight-up attacking -- you'll be throwing Satire, Antagonize, and then spells.

Doug M.

I'd like to add something that I don't think has been considered. Until recently, I was playing a Court Bard in the Council of Thieves AP.

I was having fun with the concept a lot, and the intimidation and Diplomacy bonuses were great. However, one thing that I did not consider is that Satire is mind-effecting and language dependent. There are a LOT of creatures that this can't be used on. I believe I only ever got to use satire early on against a group of human hellknights. Even the goblins weren't given common, so I couldn't use it against them. Then we start fighting undead and devils that are immune to mind-effecting abilities, and I became effectively useless with my main ability, that I thought, just like Lune, would be an awesome RP aspect.

I ending retraining my archetype because during combat I could basically just stand there aiding actions or other simple things.

Just wanted to make sure you take that aspect into account because you might have several sessions go by before your satire is effective.

EDIT: I see Dave Justus brought this point up, but as I've actually used the archetype and wasn't just theory crafting, you have to know what kind of campaign you will be playing in because it won't just be ineffective, but practically useless in the wrong campaign.

lutzsd: I can dig it. One thing I can say is that PFS has a lot of villains who are susceptible to mind affecting. Language dependent is more of an issue. There are 3 ways I plan on combatting that: Ring of Eloquence, actually investing in Linguistics and Tongues. It actually makes Tongues a combat buff. That being said I do have to accept it as a weakness that the character has.

I'll still be able to cast spells and use my other abilities. Eventually I get Inspire Greatness and I will still be able to do that even when I can't use Satire. I feel that even without using Satire he is still a passable character.

I do appreciate your input though especially from a perspective of someone who has played a similar concept. :) Any other suggestions?

Lune:

Not having ever played PFS, I guess i can't say how useful or not the archetype would be. Just between the devils and undead, it wasn't a good fit from a utility perspective. I'm sure there are scenarios that you might find yourself unable to use your best abilities. I was really looking forward to the Wide Audience ability, and just when I got it, I made the decision to retrain. You never have to worry about being able to buff your allies, after all. I know a lot of times that bonuses are applied to a roll or a reduction in DC is given, and those can be the same thing, but there is a big distinction between +2 to your allies and -2 to your enemies.

I'm pretty sure I went through all of book 2 and 3 of CoT without using Satire. one ability I never got to use is Mockery. Mockery, in an urban campaign, seemed like something I'd get to try all the time. Oh, this guy wants to bluff me? I'll just have mockery going on. Never happened. Not sure how PFS goes, but this is another ability you may never be able to use, too.

From an RP perspective, the archetype is great; very flavorful. In practice? Not as useful as I had hoped.

Have played a court bard and I would query whether perform on its own qualifed you for snake style, but bards have plenty of skill points. I'd also remind you to take linguistics too as the more language options you have the better.

It's hard to say if it does or doesn't. I've read the ability 5 times and can't see anything that stops it, really. But I get your point, personally.

If you're taking Snake Style you probably have Improved Unarmed Strike, and if you have that you can inflict non-lethal damage. That means you can take Enforcer and make everybody you hit with an unarmed strike shaken. Get a Cruel weapon (amulet of mighty fists could work) and you can make them sickened too. I figure you make fun of your enemies, dodge their attacks, and then kick them in the nuts.

I probably wouldn't bother with Arcane Strike since using the AC boost from Snake Style or the extra AoO from Snake Fang would both preclude using Arcane Strike for a round. Since the AC boost can only be used once per round it might be nice to avoid taking full attacks. The Terrible Remorse spell comes to mind, but I'm guessing there are probably some other good methods to stagger your foes or just get away from them without suffering an AoO. I guess just being really good at Acrobatics might work even.
lutzsd wrote:
Not having ever played PFS, I guess i can't say how useful or not the archetype would be.

It'll be useful. There are a certain number of undead and constructs and vermin in PFS, but almost every scenario has one or more opponents who'll be vulnerable to Satire. I'm thinking of a dozen or so PFS scenarios, and I can come up with maybe one that doesn't. And that one was an Egyptian, sorry, Osirian tomb type thing that pretty much screamed "this is all undead, constructs and vermin" right on the label.

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You never have to worry about being able to buff your allies, after all. I know a lot of times that bonuses are applied to a roll or a reduction in DC is given, and those can be the same thing, but there is a big distinction between +2 to your allies and -2 to your enemies.

Mathematically, it's a distinction that favors Satire: you're better off giving -1/-1 than +1/+1. That's why Satire is limited by being mind-affecting and so forth; if it wasn't, the Court Bard would be so superior that nobody would ever take the standard bard.

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one ability I never got to use is Mockery. Mockery, in an urban campaign, seemed like something I'd get to try all the time. Oh, this guy wants to bluff me? I'll just have mockery going on. Never happened.

I actually think Mockery is a weakish ability, myself -- a fairly minor debuff that is super situational. I'd be interested to hear of anyone using it effectively.

Doug M.

Never used Mockery either, Glorious Epic however made me very popular with the party rogue especially when I used it with Virtuoso Performance & Satire. Wide Audience was also used to great effect many times to target a casting of confusion.

The other element (and I have said this elsewhere on the threads) is spells, buffs like heroism synergise better with your debuff performance and if you specialise in fear/enchantment magic you can have some pretty high save DC's (allowing for equal stats and feats and your 7th level spell level max against the 9th level of a full caster, your satire still allows you +2 better save dc's at high levels).

The down side? Language dependant, mind effecting. Against undead and outsiders I tended to inspire greatness, spell buff and use a longspear.

Oh, and you can take Flagbearer too! It's a great archetype for a campaign, possibly slightly more problematic at pfs due to the high number of 'immune' enemies, but I always had other options (see above).
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