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Its was caused by an airborne bacteria that is spread through the air....same as flu/TB/etc. The point is still valid and as an earlier poster commented, those that are immune compromised can still have devastating health impacts.
This is really getting far afield. The simple point I wanted to make was that if you are clearly sick, and in this case the guy was coughing up a lung (not just Sat but all day Sun as well). He had numerous bottles of medicine at the gaming table and was in close proximity to other gamers for 4-5 hours at a time per gaming session. The chance of this selfish individual spreading his illness (whatever it may be) were extremely high.
Early points were made that he spent money. Well, is he going to pay my doctor's bills or pay for my missed work when I get sick because of his actions?
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Its was caused by an airborne bacteria that is spread through the air....same as flu/TB/etc. The point is still valid and as an earlier poster commented, those that are immune compromised can still have devastating health impacts.
If you are immuno compromised there are places you do not go. Garbage dumps, hospitals, new jersey, radioactive waste sites, and gaming conventions. You cannot show up at the Westminster dog show and tell them to stop the proceedings for your canine allergy.
The point is that deadly diseases that spread from person to person are kind of rare in this day and age. You can argue the table etiquette of how sick is too sick, but "you're going to kill someone" isn't a legitimate argument. Your attempt at an example of that happening failed because the legionaires disease was in the air conditioning, so the general health of everyone present was completely irrelevant.
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I'm quoting this because of the absurd level of self absorbed importance it displays.
Completely random, non sequitor insult. There is no relationship between this and anything i said.
You really just argued that people who are immunocompromised should be barred from conventions because other people cannot have the common decency to not spread disease at such.
Spreading diseases is not a matter of common courtesy its a matter of merely existing. Healthy people have and spread diseases without showing ANY effects all the time. Even if everyone with so much as the sniffles stayed home people would still be spreading diseases at conventions. There is no avoiding a certain level of this and that level is always going to be too high if someone has a compromised immune system.
Have you ever even heard of the ADA?
Yes. It calls for reasonable accommodations. The only way that several hundred people from all over the country getting together aren't going to share diseases from all over the country is if they don't get together. An event based around everyone getting together not getting together is not a reasonable accommodation.
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Its was caused by an airborne bacteria that is spread through the air....same as flu/TB/etc. The point is still valid and as an earlier poster commented, those that are immune compromised can still have devastating health impacts.
If you are immuno compromised there are places you do not go. Garbage dumps, hospitals, new jersey, radioactive waste sites, and gaming conventions.
I'm quoting this because of the absurd level of self absorbed importance it displays.
You really just argued that people who are immunocompromised should be barred from conventions because other people cannot have the common decency to not spread disease at such. Have you ever even heard of the ADA?
Those who are immunocompromised have to make a choice as to how much they want to expose themselves to. Gaming Conventions have a high level of exposure risk. They are the only ones that can be responsible for their own health.
No, we are not suggesting banning people with compromised immune systems from gaming conventions.
But the immunocompromised individuals can't say that everyone with a sniffle has to leave either.
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@BigNorseWolf
Just so Im clear on your point, you are defending the right of an individual with an infectious illness to attend a gaming convention because "Concrud" is a well know and accepted element of gaming conventions?
To some extent. If you actually have ebola or some weird antibiotic resistant tuberculous obviously not. If you have the sniffles or just got over a cold last week and still have a bit of a cough but are probably past the catching phase, yes. Because a gaming convention is not an ICU, a nursing home, or a nursery school a level of the sniffles that would keep someone out of those places does not keep one out of a gaming convention.
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True story:
In a different campaign, I was the head judge for the effective equivalent of a 'one-off' 'special'.
By Friday, the upper-respiratory, nasal-sinus, and ear thing that I had been fighting for months had *finally* run its course thanks to a strong course of antibiotics, but I had no voice and even talking at a whisper was a trial.
I was being counted on to run things, so typewritten notes were hastily constructed covering the things that could easily be covered, and I bombed my throat with every soreness relief item I could imagine.
I made it through the weekend, but by the end of it I was back into illness -- what I had not known was that I had an infected tooth, and it was causing *all* of the other issues. And I didn't find out about that until the Thursday after the convention, when said tooth finally gave up the ghost on some hard bacon.
That sucker came out the next day.
Not all illnesses are easy to pick out, and if I hadn't had that 'wake-up' call...
I got lucky. I had pretty decent insurance, which covered most of the expenses.
Now change the circumstance to 'gamer on a budget' who 'might go to a doctor/emergency room/medical consultant' when they're about to die. Especially in a different city or state than they are in normally.
The average person is going to 'tough' through illness, because the current health care system is too expensive to use properly.
It's a lot easier with that rationalization in mind to go "Oh, it's just allergies" or "It's just some sniffles." Even when hacking out both lungs and sounding like someone who's been chain-smoking for ninety years.
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So what all this basically boils down to is when you are at walgreens or cvs or wherever. .. spend the extra buck fifty on a nose and mouth mask and keep your sickness to yourself.
Everyone is happy ... the crud doesn't spread and we can go back to talking about the smelly people
One hasn't bought face masks recently, has one?
In addition, what is one going to do to make the person now wearing a 'muffler' AND having a hard time breathing to begin with *heard*?
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It has everything to do with what you wrote. You might want to think some on why.
Because people have trouble understanding anything but the most extreme position and have difficulty comprehending something apparently difficult as a balance between two extremes or two opposing forces.
I am well aware of the risks I take every day I go out of my front door. I live with them every day all day. What I, and the millions of people like me, would appreciate is if people who are actively ill and contagious would not go out in public.
How ill? How contagious? How severe? These aren't always easy to gauge.
If you're asking people to cancel hundreds if not thousands of dollars on vacation days, vacation plans, nonrefundable plane tickets, hotel reservations, for what is for the vast majority of people a case of the sniffles.. no. You're probably asking at least 10 people to stay home for every one person that that MIGHT let attend.
If you're asking that someone hacking blood onto the battle mat be escorted out, no problem.
But where do you draw a line between those?
BTW since you are such pontificating about a subject you know nothing about, I'll let you in on something. People on immunosuppressants attend Gencon and other big cons every year. it is not too dangerous. They take their usual precautions and avoid obviously sick people. Maybe once you grow up some more you might even get to know some.
You can gauge your individual abilities and risks as you wish. You cannot expect everyone to do the same with you in mind.
Want to bet? Try banning the immunocompromised from a con and see how that goes for you....
I didn't say ban the immunocompromised from a con.
I didn't hint at it
I didn't imply it.
If you doubt that, try to quote me.
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Now change the circumstance to 'gamer on a budget' who 'might go to a doctor/emergency room/medical consultant' when they're about to die. Especially in a different city or state than they are in normally.
Every American in this thread just nodded in sympathy, and every European and Canadian just said to themselves, "thank god I don't live in America."
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You didn't? Someone has hacked your account you might want to look into that.
The only way that several hundred people from all over the country getting together aren't going to share diseases from all over the country is if they don't get together. An event based around everyone getting together not getting together is not a reasonable accommodation.
*headscratch* What the...
Yeah, that's not an account hack that's you seeing things that are VERY much not there.
There is no mention of a ban
there is no mention of a rule
there is no mention of any sort of policy by the convention to exclude people.
Its a simple statement of fact that there are a lot of people in one place there are a lot of diseases at one place because human beings are basically mobile microbe mansions.
There is a world of difference between the organization having a policy of "we will not let you enter" and the physical realities of an event meaning that you entering may not be the best idea. I'm not banned from climbing up mount McKinley but a foot broken in three places a herniated disk and a who knows what from africa make it a pretty bad idea.
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So what all this basically boils down to is when you are at walgreens or cvs or wherever. .. spend the extra buck fifty on a nose and mouth mask and keep your sickness to yourself.
Everyone is happy ... the crud doesn't spread and we can go back to talking about the smelly people
One hasn't bought face masks recently, has one?
In addition, what is one going to do to make the person now wearing a 'muffler' AND having a hard time breathing to begin with *heard*?
ah...
I was actually looking at these... they are available in 30 count and 10 count for about $1.29 each... so a little under Thea's guess of a buck fifty. I'm actually looking at these for my Mana Waste Tiefling (posting as him now)
N-95 masks are only effective if they are properly fitted, which for most people at a con without any training, they will not be. One size does not fit all.
I know being sick sucks and you may be out some money if you cancel. But if you are sick and gaming, you're not going to enjoy the game, you're going to make the game less fun for other people there, and you are risking giving other people your germs.
If you're sick, stay home. Don't make people have to ask you to leave.
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I know being sick sucks and you may be out some money if you cancel. But if you are sick and gaming, you're not going to enjoy the game, you're going to make the game less fun for other people there, and you are risking giving other people your germs.
If you're sick, stay home. Don't make people have to ask you to leave.
EXCEPT for the problem of what defines 'sick'. Some folks will go "Oh, dear, I'm feeling a little bit out of it. Better call it in."
Other folks will go "I'm only hacking out half a lung, I'm still good coach! Put me in! I can play... center field! Or line! Anything!"
*This* is the dangerous slippery slope that folks keep sliding down.
At what level is 'ill' and what level is 'minor inconvenience'?
I'm not talking out of my butt here. I've been going to conventions since 1994. And yes, there have been some where I *could not afford to go home* until the end of the convention despite not being in the greatest of health.
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I'm not talking out of my butt here. I've been going to conventions since 1994. And yes, there have been some where I *could not afford to go home* until the end of the convention despite not being in the greatest of health.
It's happened to me too. I was in San Diego for Comic-con and my other half got sick on Friday night. We didn't go to any of the panels or our game sessions for the rest of the con, and we stayed in the hotel room for two days, me taking care of her until it was time to fly back on Monday morning. She was coughing up a lung, had a 102.5 fever, and it was a terrible experience. Still, trying to power through it was not an option.
People who do is why con crud is a thing.
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It's happened to me too. I was in San Diego for Comic-con and my other half got sick on Friday night. We didn't go to any of the panels or our game sessions for the rest of the con, and we stayed in the hotel room for two days, me taking care of her until it was time to fly back on Monday morning. She was coughing up a lung, had a 102.5 fever, and it was a terrible experience. Still, trying to power through it was not an option.People who do is why con crud is a thing.
Gen Con, want to say 2006...
It's hotter than blazes outside. The convention decides to pick this year to have the 'spread all over Indianapolis' format. I have to judge at three different locations at least a quarter mile apart from each other.
Already not in the greatest of health, but *obligated* to judge for my badge, I have to push through. By the end of the convention I was emanating unhealth from every orifice.
In this circumstance, I couldn't just 'stay in my room' until the end of the convention or 'until I felt better'. I could very easily have been penalized for 'breach of contract' for not following through on my judging obligations, not to mention putting other folks in a bind.
That's *one* of the reasons I won't judge a lot anymore, and pay my own freight, as it were.
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If you are coughing or sneezing productively you are most likely contagious. If you are running any sort of fever you may be contagious. If it has been less than 24 hours since you were any of the above you are probably still contagious.
If you are contagious you shouldn't be out in public at all except to go to receive medical attention.
Even spreading rhinovirus is a pretty crappy thing to do and things like influenza or pneumonia are potentially deadly.
I find the idea that this is even still up for debate mind boggling. A person with an undiagnosed but active acute illness is clearly subject to immediate removal. I assume we'd all agree that if the bodily fluids being sprayed about were blood then removal would be called for correct?
And if a person says it's 'allergies' are GMs supposed to be medical professionals to call them on their error?
What if they misdiagnose? Will the convention/organization cover their legal bills?
What about those folks who don't take their temperature because if they have a fever they lose at least two days of pay as well as the costs of attending ER/medical Doctor/etc?
I've seen plenty of people have nosebleeds, cough up a little bit of blood. And their response has been 'I'm fine, keep going'.
It may boggle your mind, but my experience supports (in a very disturbing fashion) this latter situation.
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If you are coughing or sneezing productively you are most likely contagious. If you are running any sort of fever you may be contagious. If it has been less than 24 hours since you were any of the above you are probably still contagious.
If you are contagious you shouldn't be out in public at all except to go to receive medical attention.
Even spreading rhinovirus is a pretty crappy thing to do and things like influenza or pneumonia are potentially deadly.
I find the idea that this is even still up for debate mind boggling. A person with an undiagnosed but active acute illness is clearly subject to immediate removal. I assume we'd all agree that if the bodily fluids being sprayed about were blood then removal would be called for correct?
It is still up for debate because your solution isn't a solution. Staying home when you are contagious may be good advise, but even people that acknowledge it as good advice are likely to ignore that advice when push comes to shove. We know this because this is what people do outside the gaming environment, so there is no reason to assume they will behave differently inside of it. Employers can tell employees to go home when they are sick, but they frequently don't. Businesses can tell customers to leave if they are sick, but they frequently don't. This is no different from GM/Organizers doing the same. So much though this advice may sound like a solution to the problem, in reality it is just a dismissal of it.
Kicking out everyone with the sniffles is just going to drop the fort save from 14 to 12, not eliminate the need for a save altogether.
But such a solution would eliminate the largest risk because, after all, the best vector for spreading most communicable diseases is, you guessed it, coughing and sneezing.
An MIT article on the matter... and MIT is generally good on fact-checking their work.
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coughing up blood is also a sign of someone coughing hard and causing small tears in their esophagus (have coded it 5 times today alone) so not always a sign of TB
Other symptoms of TB could include
Coughing that lasts three or more weeks
Coughing up blood
Chest pain, or pain with breathing or coughing
Unintentional weight loss
Fatigue
Fever
Night sweats
Chills
Loss of appetite
Coughing up a bit of blood is a symptom of TB one of the most communicable diseases known to man. Someone coughing hard and producing blood when they do so should be isolated immediately. That shouldn't be open for discussion. Anyone showing those symptoms needs to be seen by a medical professional immediately.
As to bills, if I am at a con and some one is obviously ill and I ask that he be moved and he isn't do you think the con wants to find out what the combined legal and medical bills will be if I get sick? Last time I got the flu it turned into pneumonia and I was hospitalized for almost 2 weeks.
^ That. ^
Seriously, why is it so hard for people to NOT be selfish when it comes to someone's health? IT'S A CON, FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE! It's not your child's graduation or something, so calm down and stay home if you are sick.
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At least some of the convention problem is con-related. Gencon, for example, just stops processing refund requests past a certain point. Then there's hotels and flights. For the most recent con my wife and I attended, we spent basically our entire travel budget for that year.
That, combined with hotel, flights/gas, food, etc. makes for a very strong incentive to attend and try to have fun, even if you're feeling under the weather.
If you want to reduce the number of sick people at conventions, a good start might be to get the conventions to change their refund policies.
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Alternatively, if someone is *that concerned* about a person's health, why don't they put their money where their mouth is and pay for an ambulance for the person to go to the hospital to get checked out, and the subsequent medical bills?
I highly doubt that level of altruism exists in the gaming community, to be honest.
Also, side note: I can start having a coughing fit and sneezing and turning green if I'm either sitting next to a chain-smoker or a chain-vaper. Should *I* be asked to leave because *their behaviour* has made me ill? How is that selfish of me when it's not even *my fault*?
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I don't like to sit next to a smoker or vaper either. In a few cases I have asked to move to another seat and when asked I didn't pull any punches and said, "I really hate the smell of cigarette smoke and you smell like the Marlboro Man." But in fairness it has to be a ripe smell, as I can normally handle a casual smoker.
I guess it really comes down to how much initiative you want to take as a GM. As for me, I trust my training and experience to determine if someone is sick enough for me to ask to leave a table. If I am told that 'we can't do that' by event staff, so be it. I will just not GM or offer my services in the future. It really is that easy.
Am I going to reserve my 'booting' to the most extreme cases, very likely. Is it going to bother me to do it? Not at all. Are a bunch of folks going to call the PC police? Sure. Are the players at my table going to thank me? Silently yes, outwardly who knows?
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I could see how placing deodorant, mints and breath masks on the gaming table at the start of play could be construed the other way
In the right group, this could be effective, but generally speaking I would expect the recipient to at least consider it passive-aggressive if not outright offensive. The sentiment is probably warranted, but the method by which we communicate is sometimes as important as the words we use.
I was joking but I do bring mints normally :)
Ah, but you're missing a trick here.
Use the mints as proxy miniatures for any numerous goons, and tell the players they can eat any 'casualties' they create.
For really halitosis-ridden players, would it be breaking the 'adventure reskinning' rule, to have a sudden surge of reinforcements appear, and run onto the end of the PC's blade?
"Wow, who knew you had Combat Reflexes? That's four of them laid out at your feet. Chow down, Champion! Gobble'em up!"