The party is level 13 and just got their first mythic level.
I've just prepped the BBEG for the next stretch of adventure the party is going into. Using the NPC elite stat array and Wealth by Level charts resulted in a BBEG that was so weak, I don't think he'd even get a turn. I moved stuff around. I gave him max HP, 150K in gear for a CR 16 M3. I gave him no stat lower than 16. And I'm still looking at these numbers and thinking that while now he might get a turn, he's not going to last to a second round.
And I look at his numbers. Three attacks that will almost certainly hit, with a 17+ crit, x3 multiplier, and he does 1d8 + 34 + 2d10 damage. Granting that this is a crit fishing BBEG, he'd outright kill 2 of the PCs with a hit and a crit. And while I want them to feel the threat from this guy, a single bad roll or a good roll will determine whether I'm being unfair to them or they barely notice the speed bump.
This is the culmination of one of the PC's backstories being resolved in a final fight where he gets to take over a whole barony in Hell by defeating this one guy.
While these numbers are pretty high, this doesn't really sound... epic. I want him to have his sneery bad guy posturing in the middle of the fight. I want players to get hurt without being brutally murdered without warning. I envision having to feed him more HP just to get some good sneering in. It might even come to the point where I'll DOUBLE his base HP just to keep him around long enough for them to remember he was there at all. And I might pull punches on the crits just to have the players feel I wasn't cheating. Which, of course, I will be.
Does anyone else feel that they have to adjust numbers on the fly, to the point where the numbers as they were originally generated really don't matter at all anymore?
How do you keep a game of Rocket Tag interesting?
While MR1 alone isn't typically enough to annihilate the balance in your game (casters aside), having this BBEG being alone most certainly favors the PCs. Give him minions/mooks, whatever. Look at the damage capable of your party, try to get your BBEG into a state where he can survive the onslaught of your PCs. Even minor buffs like Mirror Image or Displacement will help immensely, provided your PCs don't have counters. Alternatively, greater invisibility is a thing.
To really help we need to know exactly what the party makeup, and the makeup of your BBEG is.
I love having large numbers of minions. Also, give him some defenses that are more than just a high AC and lots of hit points. Give him a simulucram, mirror image, illusions to confuse, smoke/fog/whatever, deeper darkness, battlefield control stuff, that sort of thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My view is that creating the BBEG is the one time the monster creation rules can be ignored. My usual tactic is to pick an existing monster stat block from a CR appropriate challenge and multiply the hit points by ten and maybe add some defences. I never add to the creature's ability to attack, because that is just asking for a TPK, I just improve resilience and or defensive measures.
I'll echo the going sentiment here - the game's action economy means a single enemy is rarely a challenging fight. Typically I would create a boss that is 2 or maybe 3 CR above the party, then give them minions ranging from 3 below to equal CR, depending on how many you feel is thematically appropriate. Higher boss CRs get fewer minions, of course.
It's important, however, is that the minions should provide different types of challenges. If the BBEG is a mage, give him some reasonably strong warrior minions to play speedbump while he readies the big spells. If he's a warrior, give him a mage or two to pack him full of buffs and use crowd control on the party. If he's smart, give him some memorable tactics. Maybe he tries to goad the specific nemesis PC into single combat while the others have to deal with his minions.
If he or his lieutenants have encountered the party before, consider preparing for some of their favorite tactics. Maybe the party wizard has a few favorite spells that usually turn the tide in their favor; give him a mage minion whose job it is to counterspell. Maybe the cleric loves using summoning spells; order two archers to ready arrows to interrupt him when he does. If he's a culminating villain in a long story, he probably knows a few things about the party - let him use that. These kind of tailored strategies can add an extra layer of depth to the challenge, essentially adding goals to the fight beyond kill the BBEG as fast as possible.
Lastly, if the PCs are fighting him in his home base, let him choose the battlefield, with terrain that is advantageous to him. If he likes to fight at range, put him atop a ledge or balcony (maybe less useful by 13th level, admittedly). If he's some sort of demon with fire resistance, maybe he fights them in a place with lava, flame jets, and other fire hazards. If he's the clever type, maybe he's installed some well placed traps to surprise the PCs mid-fight. Heck, if things go poorly, dropping a ceiling on them is a good way to show off his strength.
5e legendary actions. The biggest thing he lacks is action economy.
+1. They work wonderfully.
Give the Boss levels in Magus, and have him cast Mirror Image on himself, while keeping a full attack. For added bonus, buff with Displacement and Shield. Re-cast Mirror Image, when too many images are lost.
Have the group first meet a Boss 'stand in', some inconsequential chump made to imitate the real Boss. Have some miscellaneous treasure guarded by a few mundane traps, that will have the group pass the time after the fight. Then 15 minutes later, when the group's buffs have worn off, the real Boss shows up, all buffed to the gills with potions like Bark Skin, Bull Strength, and so on.
I would avoid crit fishing on a BBEG, too likely to end in a PCs ignoble death. Death is one thing, dying without ever getting a hit in is another.
I will echo the comments about giving it mooks. I would also consider looking at ways to give positional advantage. These can give a significant advantage to the defender and make for some very interesting combats. Just make sure that you don't make one of your players feel as if they have nothing effective they can do.
Do NOT trust the CR calculations. At those levels, they are only the barest of guidelines.
Have the group first meet a Boss 'stand in', some inconsequential chump made to imitate the real Boss. Have some miscellaneous treasure guarded by a few mundane traps, that will have the group pass the time after the fight. Then 15 minutes later, when the group's buffs have worn off, the real Boss shows up, all buffed to the gills with potions like Bark Skin, Bull Strength, and so on.
I'm okay with this approach provided the PCs are not railroaded into fighting the minion first. There should always be options like avoiding that fight, or even turning the minion against the master.
5e legendary actions. The biggest thing he lacks is action economy.+1. They work wonderfully.
I was actually considering something like this. As well as Lair actions, since I expect the final confrontation will take place in his estate.
Minions would be a good speed bump. Maybe I will remove his crit fishing feats and gear.
Currently he's a Psychic Warrior (Dreamscarred Press)/Fighter/Champion (Mythic Path). I created him like a mythic hero because it seemed appropriate. I may change it around to a monster + MR to get the DR/epic.
His Psychic Warrior powers give him a "attack and then teleport" power that I expect to use. I like the balcony idea in conjunction with that. Maybe I'll move their final fight into the great hall of his palace. He can attack, then port into safety of the upper tier.
Thanks. I still expect to have to pump his HP up, though, to make him interesting. My players tend to ignore mooks to focus on the BBEG.
Use mooks with reach. Make it harder for them to attack the BBEG. Make it so they need to cut a hole at least.
|
I say give him a pretty elite team.
Give him a Reach Fighter type, archer, and something that can heal and buff like a cleric.
Since it is the BBEG have him assign targets to his minions. Like the archer is to target the wizard when he tries to cast. Force interrupts. This BBEG should know a lot about the PCs considering he has been pulling strings this whole time. I am sure he is aware of them.
Have the fighter like guy (Doesn't have to be fighter.) use stand still and other feats to keep them away from the BBEG. They have to deal with the fighters first.
The Cleric...Have them begin the fight buffing with Rounds/lvl spell first round and fighting to his full strength the rest of the rounds. You could make him a sacred summoner/reach cleric to match the reach fighter. Both can make it super hard to get to the Archer and the BBEG. Round 1 Sacred summon, Move to position, Swift action Prayer or something.
Make sure they are spread out enough that area control will not hit them all. Keep their turns/intentions secret...the wizard should not know that the archer is waiting to Interrupt his casting. If they are aware of the PCs (They should be) then they should be fully prebuffed.
For a cool fight that doesnt end in Rocket Tag, NEVER WITHOUT MINIONS!
Never!
No, really.
Action Economy is that crass.
+1 for adding minions.
*snip**snip*Currently he's a Psychic Warrior (Dreamscarred Press)/Fighter/Champion (Mythic Path). I created him like a mythic hero because it seemed appropriate. I may change it around to a monster + MR to get the DR/epic.
His Psychic Warrior powers give him a "attack and then teleport" power that I expect to use. I like the balcony idea in conjunction with that. Maybe I'll move their final fight into the great hall of his palace. He can attack, then port into safety of the upper tier.
My 2cp:
Give him the DR anyway.You're the DM.
You can't cheat.
Because you establish the rules.
And that fight's setup sounds freaking awesome.
|
If you know your player's characters really well and you had plenty of time to concoct a killer BBEG, you should really avoid arbitrary raising his statistics just because you want an epic fight. Arbitrary raising his statistics can get out of hand if you use it too often and your players will notice it eventually.
Add more minions, but not useless ones. Make every minion a threat and you'll divide the party's attention completely.
Adam
Whilst I think using minions is a good idea and it makes sense for a BBEG to have minions, it doesn't really address the issue. My experience (and granted our table could be an anomaly) is that the PCs will typically spend 3-4 rounds dealing with the minions and then once they are destroyed,1-2 rounds dealing with the BBEG. Often fighting the minions is more memorable than the final boss, which is the anticlimax the opening post wants to avoid. I think a better strategy is to simply substantially improve the resilience of the BBEG. Say for example you decided to go with a Lich for the BBEG, the standard Lich has only about 110hp and a level 13 party will destroy it easily within 1 round. Increase it's hp to 1,100hp (or higher if needed) without changing anything else and it will prolong the fight and pose a much greater challenge without guaranteeing a TPK.
An invisible ally using shield other and channel can make things last longer.
Increase it's hp to 1,100hp (or higher if needed) without changing anything else and it will prolong the fight and pose a much greater challenge without guaranteeing a TPK.Sharp disagreement. Arbitrarily giving him 10X the hit points is probably just going to piss your players off.
Doug M.
Some purists might be annoyed, I doubt it, but what I have found is that it if used sparingly it makes the boss fights more epic.
What the OP is facing here is the "Action Economy Problem". It's a deep hardwired problem in third edition generally and Pathfinder in particular. Basically, multiple PCs have a tactical advantage over a single opponent. If you stay within the rules, this problem becomes very hard to solve. If you make the BBEG stronger, you will hit a tipping point where the combat becomes rocket tag -- whoever gets a good hit first, kills. At higher levels in PF, it's very difficult to design a single-BBEG encounter that is challenging without involving a major risk of PC death and/or TPK. Mythic ranks make the problem even worse.
In PF, minions are the default solution. They're a kludge.
As a couple of posters have already noted, 5th edition has come up with a pretty elegant solution: Legendary Actions and Lair Actions. I'm not a 5th edition fanboy generally, but it has its points, and this is definitely one of them. So if you feel you absolutely must bend a rule or two, you could consider applying something like a Lair Action. Justify it in-game if possible ("He's much more dangerous if you face him in his place of power!")
Doug M.
I respectfully disagree.
You can give the BBEG three actions every turn and he will still die in one round. This is not an action economy problem this is an offence out of kilter with defence problem. This is a much easier problem to solve, just make them harder to kill without improving their offensive capability.
Some purists might be annoyed, I doubt it, but what I have found is that it if used sparingly it makes the boss fights more epic.
When a player hits an enemy and deals 100+ damage, he wants to hear how injured the boss is now. Not that it still has 1000 hp left. HP sponges are not fun.
Some purists might be annoyed, I doubt it, but what I have found is that it if used sparingly it makes the boss fights more epic.Increase it's hp to 1,100hp (or higher if needed) without changing anything else and it will prolong the fight and pose a much greater challenge without guaranteeing a TPK.Sharp disagreement. Arbitrarily giving him 10X the hit points is probably just going to piss your players off.
Doug M.
Perhaps, rather than multiplying the hit points, simply don't count them and have the fight reach a conclusion when you think it has paced out right, before it either drags on but after it has led to a satisfying amount of action and banter.
Instead of tons of HP let him prepare for that combat.
A 1000hp BBEG is as hard as the one with 100hp with stoneskin,haste,mirror image,blur and other buffs.
When a player hits an enemy and deals 100+ damage, he wants to hear how injured the boss is now. Not that it still has 1000 hp left. HP sponges are not fun.
Some purists might be annoyed, I doubt it, but what I have found is that it if used sparingly it makes the boss fights more epic.
That is a valid point. I have found that you do need to give constant feedback as to the monster's status. I have also found that it is more satisfying for players to have the BBEG survive a 100+hp hit than to have them die in one round.
Instead of tons of HP let him prepare for that combat.
A 1000hp BBEG is as hard as the one with 100hp with stoneskin,haste,mirror image,blur and other buffs.
All of those defences can be bypassed. There is no way of bypassing hit points. Those defences also rely on the BBEG not being surprised.
If the BBEG has a bunch of defences which can be bypassed (but which probably won't all be) then no, you don't know exactly how long the combat will last. That's a good thing; it means the actions of the players (and maybe their luck) matters. Which makes the battle more memorable.
Padded Sumo was not one of 4e's best points. The reverse IMO, I wouldn't try to reproduce it.
All of those defences can be bypassed. There is no way of bypassing hit points.Instead of tons of HP let him prepare for that combat.
A 1000hp BBEG is as hard as the one with 100hp with stoneskin,haste,mirror image,blur and other buffs.More hit points make him immune to save-or-suck spells?
Doug M.
Not relevant in this case. BBEGs are rarely vulnerable to save or die effects.
|
|
With all due respect Boomerang Nebula, 1,100 hp BBEG is a tipping point where you as a GM are starting to favorize BBEG more then PCs themselves. This isn't a Final Fantasy game. Bosses aren't meant to be long 4 hour combats and I am pretty sure that 1,100 hp BBEG brings unhappiness to your players, but even if you give him so much hp, what's next? +30 to all Saves after your players start to use control spells on him? +50 to AC after barb is hitting for 40+ on AC? Immunities after you realize that he is vulnerable to Coup De Grace or Sneak Attack? You are denying your players a good game like that and giving major hp boost is beyond laziness as a GM.
Adam
>How do you keep a game of Rocket Tag interesting?
Same way it is done in video games, give everyone free respawns. I heard somewhere that DnD-like combat system is interesting because of ablative hitpoints, and that it gets boring at high levels because lots of spells bypass that, so ~all battles come down to who shoots first. Well, give everyone ablative lives then, problem solved.
P.s. I have never DM'ed, so might be missing some fatal flaw in this idea.
Probably because of 4E, my usual solution for bosses (once the party is high enough level - 7ish or its equivalent) is a "boss" template that grants:
(1) the benefits of the advanced simple template,
(2) +5 to all saves,
(3) double maximum HP, and
(4) another arbitrary benefit or benefits - at lower levels, usually granting a new special ability and/or converting one of the boss's standard action abilities to a swift action; at higher levels, also granting bonus out-of-turn standard actions pretty much like 5E's legendary actions).
I grant the boss +2 CR from this boost and increase the XP award appropriately. (Unless said boss is a unique being/creature over CR 20 already (like a spawn of Rovagug or nascent demon lord), in which case boss template is free =P)
And then I usually have mooks too. So the boss usually gets a few rounds to do stuff and generally show off before the party can finally gang up on it and kill it.
My players generally build bad-ass PCs, though.
From a player perspective - once I'm at the point where I normally reduce foes to hamburger in a single round, facing something that can legitimately take me on is always a nice change of pace.
It's always worth remembering that a party of four PCs aren't up against an even fight until they're facing an ECL+4 encounter...
With all due respect Boomerang Nebula, 1,100 hp BBEG is a tipping point where you as a GM are starting to favorize BBEG more then PCs themselves. This isn't a Final Fantasy game. Bosses aren't meant to be long 4 hour combats and I am pretty sure that 1,100 hp BBEG brings unhappiness to your players, but even if you give him so much hp, what's next? +30 to all Saves after your players start to use control spells on him? +50 to AC after barb is hitting for 40+ on AC? Immunities after you realize that he is vulnerable to Coup De Grace or Sneak Attack? You are denying your players a good game like that and giving major hp boost is beyond laziness as a GM.
Adam
I am going to ignore the laziness slur because I don't think you really meant it.
My philosophy with gaming is maximising player and GM fun. If the boss dies in one round because they only have 100hp the boss fight becomes an anticlimax that nobody enjoys. I have found through experience that the most elegant solution is to simply increase hit points by a factor of ten. I have tried: decoys, minions, weird tactics, immunities, hostile environments, increasing action economy etc. and none of those are as effective as increasing the BBEG hit points by a factor of ten. Increasing hit points also appears to be independent of level and game system. For example it works well in GURPS which has a far worse rocket tag problem than Pathfinder.
If the players want to use save or die effects I don't do anything special to stop them. "Why?" You may ask. Because by doing so they show that they want a rocket tag style game.
That gives bonuses to the many-hit people and isn't so good for the vital strike uber-damage people.You could use the boss HP system a friend of mine uses for his GURPS game.
Bosses have, say, 10 hit points, and every attack deals 1. Hit him 10 times and he falls. Don't even count damage. Just hits.
That is why I don't use it for Pathfinder. For GURPS I imagine that it would work quite well.
You could use the boss HP system a friend of mine uses for his GURPS game.
Bosses have, say, 10 hit points, and every attack deals 1. Hit him 10 times and he falls. Don't even count damage. Just hits.
Just curious: does he also ignore the shock rules for injury? And what about knockdown, knockback and crippled limbs?
One of the nastiest module fights I was ever in playing PFS involved minions. a quartet of 6th-level sorcerers who dumped overlapping Fireballs on the party from hiding places three stories up. Anybody who poopooed a need for decent reflex saves was regretting their life choices that day.
But, from a GM's standpoint, it's the ideal kind of encounter because when that many dice are involved, the odds that the inflicted will hew few close to standard probabilities is exceptionally good.