Alright a little backstory on this one, I've shown this class here a couple years ago and got a lot of really great feedback on it, but having never actually gotten to test it or really get an idea of what it's numbers should be even now, I'm hoping to just take the brunt of criticism and finally get it settled.
The main point of the class was to be a non-magical necromancer for our groups custom world, and has a pool of HD to summon skeletons from while empowering them passively and acting as a unit commander of their own summoned forces. This is what I've got down right now since at the time we really wanted to stay away from the use of spells like animate dead mostly.
I'm openly willing to hear if this project should be abandoned after so long, but I'm really hoping I'm on the right track.
bump?
This could use some editing.
Using a summoning mechanic in place of animate dead is smart. I think it would have been an even better idea to stay closer to the summoner. Why not use the summoner chassis, replacing summon monster with skeletal summons and eidolon with a grave knight?
In Pathfinder, Intelligence determines what a creature can or can't do. Skeletons are usually mindless, but you obviously want them to have some sort of Intelligence, so instead of telling us in examples what they can or can't do, just give them an Intelligence score. Better yet, you could grant normal skeletons at 1st level and skeletal champions (which aren't mindless) at higher levels.
Obviously, this class is meant to be able to join the fight at the front, but aside from high AC, there is not a lot to support it. I think you have to decide whether you want a skeleton summoner or a skeleton warrior class (both could be awesome).
Necromantic Disciple(Su)
Okay, lots of comments on this ability (well, it is 90% of the class). First of all, the summoning process is left quite ambiguous so I'm not entirely sure how this is supposed to work. Do you need a corpse, or can you just specify any corporeal creature within the HD limit and a skeleton version will materialize? Where does it appear? Adjacent to you? Anywhere within 30 feet? Can you use the bloody or burning skeleton templates? Figure out the fine-grained details, then write down explicitly what you mean.
The limit of skeletons equal to no more than 1/2 of your HD total is downright punative. First of all this renders the ability unusable at 1st level because you did not specify a minimum of 1 HD. Second of all, it restricts you to using very weak fodder minions that are unlikely to survive more than one round of combat. Even with the defensive boosts gained at higher levels, the fact that they only advance every other level means they're rapidly falling behind the curve and are not keeping up with undead created by a bog-standard animate dead spell.
The distance requirement seems unnecessary given that you don't have telepathic control (you can "possess" them remotely with dead sight, but this is less useful than the ability to simply relay orders) and they're not particularly useful if you're not there order them around. I'd say the wand and potion restriction is better handled in this way as well; mindless skeletons are simply not smart enough to use such items without explicit instructions.
Finally, the column on the class table is listed as HD pool per day but the ability description does not limit summoning by HD but rather by individual skeletons. This is a somewhat misleading editing issue.
Dead Sight(Su)
Very niche ability due to the distance limitation (even with the expanded range) and basically only useful for doing a suicide scout mission.
Channel Energy(Su)
Why level-2? And why do you have to wait until level 3 to get this? Clerics get more class features than you do and still get this ability at 1st level. Move this to 1st level with no level penalty. And give the Command Undead feat for free, while you're at it.
Reapers Speech(Sp)
While it's fair that mindless undead shouldn't get a save, it seems a bit weird that a Lich would get no save against telling the truth here.
Armed Skeletons(Ex)
While the armor is modestly useful, the weapons are practically useless since natural attacks will almost always be superior selections anyways. Also you have this listed as 6th level in some places and and 9th level in others. I'm presuming 6th level, given that's otherwise a dead level.
Spawn Grave Champion(Su)
The HD cap of the Grave Champion is never specified anywhere. I'm presuming it's supposed to be a HD total equal to your own, with a +2 tacked on afterwards? Again, many of my concerns with the baseline Necromantic Disciple ability apply here. It's unclear what kinds of skeletons you can summon, and here even the Skeleton Champion template is in contention. Can I have a Grave Champion with class levels? Even moreso than the baseline Necromantic Disciple, this ability needs to be nailed down because different interpretations lead to vastly different levels of power. In any case, the ability to have a full-powered minion that you can re-summon if killed 10+ times per day seems a bit excessive. Not much point in summoning weaker skeletons; just save usages for re-summoning this guy and use him as a kamikaze warrior.
Calcify(Su)
Don't see why Stone to Flesh shouldn't work here; it's kinda the whole point of the spell to reverse effects like this. Also could be inconvenient for the Reaper himself if he wants to use this ability to capture someone rather than kill them, meaning there's no easy way for him to "uncalify" the target.
For we are Many(Ex)
Very nice capstone. Those benefits are kinda meh on something with 1/2 your HD, but are pretty fricken sweet for a full-powered PC.
Key for Skeleton Stats.
The hit point column you have listed here is wrong. Skeletons would not receive maximized hit points, and would have roughly half as many hit points as listed here. Similarly, I'm not sure how you're calculating that bonus feat column, but mindless creatures shouldn't be getting feats at all. And for your Grave Champion (who isn't mindless) the number of feats is less than half of what it should be.
And lastly - Spellcasting, or rather the lack thereof...
Given the rather sparse class features here centered around a single ability and only 3/4 BAB, this class should have at least 6-levels of spellcasting. Given that you very explicitly want a non-caster, you should bump it full BAB and add more class features to make this class more self-sufficient in combat. As it stands, the Reaper Initiate's only niche is playing shenanigans by respawning a tricked-out Grave Champion. In a standard Pathfinder setting where Clerics are allowed, he's completely outclassed by them.
This could use some editing.
Using a summoning mechanic in place of animate dead is smart. I think it would have been an even better idea to stay closer to the summoner. Why not use the summoner chassis, replacing summon monster with skeletal summons and eidolon with a grave knight?
In Pathfinder, Intelligence determines what a creature can or can't do. Skeletons are usually mindless, but you obviously want them to have some sort of Intelligence, so instead of telling us in examples what they can or can't do, just give them an Intelligence score. Better yet, you could grant normal skeletons at 1st level and skeletal champions (which aren't mindless) at higher levels.
Obviously, this class is meant to be able to join the fight at the front, but aside from high AC, there is not a lot to support it. I think you have to decide whether you want a skeleton summoner or a skeleton warrior class (both could be awesome).
Yeah I really should have someone proof read it sometime since I know theres probably a lot of mistakes I missed, and well when this class was made it was a couple year ago and before the summoner even existed (originally made for 3.5 but a lot was different) so that's the biggest reason for not having anything similar to a summoner, aside from staying away from spells.
As for intelligence I see your point, but I wonder if that might over complicate things too. Like would them having an intellect make them conflict with the Initiate or clash with the "any" part of the initiates alignment, or would we just say they are subservient and always of similar alignment? I myself might just be overthinking it.
Part of the reason I want help with this is that I'm realizing this very point. The bonuses the skeletons get have actually remained pretty static through the history of this class, but it's main participant has gone up in down in power. I do mainly want it to be a skeleton summoner, but I'm curious what you might be thinking of with a skeleton warrior if you don't mind sharing?
A whole bunch of stuff
First thanks for such a detailed analysis of some of the issues.
Necromantic Disciple: I had left it kind of ambiguous because I honestly wasn't sure what all needed to be said since it's more of a summoning than a 'raising' in traditional sense, however I will be adding those details now after some thought and we'll see how it looks then.
I should have also added the (minimum 1) clause which I didn't even see was missing, having not really touched the class in a while and just not seeing it wasn't there. Are they really that weak? In the first drafts they didn't have the 1/2 HD restriction and many thought that let them summon either too many or too large a skeleton for the early levels so I included that restriction. I'm not sure how they are falling behind, but whether I see it or not what would you suggest to improve this? I don't want to over do the tuning like has happened in the past.
So would you think telepathic control would be more fitting? I had them originally with that and no range limit which people looking the class over seemed to have issue with for a level 1 so I put the limit it has now.
About the column you're totally right and I missed that, I'll be adjust the wording so it's more correct.
Dead Sight: When they had no range limit it was a bit more useful, so I can kinda see your point there.
Channel Energy: once again something I wasn't sure about power level. Equal thoughts said that it was too potentially powerful at level 1 while others said that it didn't fit at all. I really wanted to include the ability so thats how it ended up but I would love to have it put to 1st again, but I have to ask how clerics get more abilities when most of their levels are dead aside from spells lol.
Armed Skeletons:It should indeed say 6th, and really? cause it listed them as having a 1d4 claw attack which doesn't seem to surpass a longsword in damage unless I missed something..which is likely.
Spawn Grave Champion: It has the same caps as normal besides the 2 bonus HD which don't apply, and it has whatever the HD of the skeleton you named + those 2. No you can't give it class levels (curious how someone would do that thought since it has some merit), as for the point of the champion was to have a sort of second in command of the forces. You would have your own little troop of weaker skeletons while the champion would be able to command it's own, but I can understand if it didn't come across that way.
Calcify:Might not be a big deal to change that, but the idea was that because it was their bones and not actually stone or a normal transmutation effect that the normal means of undoing it wouldn't work, and as it was meant to be a form of 'instant death', capturing was never in my mindset for the ability at all. I don't see a huge issue in the change though.
For We Are Many: I'm happy to see at least one of my design plans made it out looking good lol.
Key for skeletons: well it actually says in Necromantic disciple that they have max hit points per die, which was something I had as a hopeful way to make it easier and have them a tad stronger. As for the rest of the column I would be lying if I said I remembered how it was formulated but I know it had something to do with the Animal Companions list. How would you recommend changing it?
I wouldn't say they are sparse more just..not functioning as intended or passive. I will say however I DO NOT want to include spells into this class as I feel they very strongly take away from power in many other ways that I would prefer to focus on like you've pointed out.
You feel full BAB isn't pushing it? the original draft had that and many gave me a lot of flack over it so hearing the opposite opinion is welcome and surprising. As for more features I'm open to this idea, what level of changes to basic things and or what kinds of abilities might be good to add would you have in mind?
on a side note, Clerics outclass a lot of things, and I'd like this class to be roughly Sorcerer equivalent for power scale
I'm not sure how they are falling behind, but whether I see it or not what would you suggest to improve this?
To illustrate how they're falling behind, you need only look at their CR. 5 HD skeletons are only CR 2 monsters, and at 10th level play that's inconsequential. The comparison just gets worse as you go higher and higher, with these skeletons falling further and further behind the power curve. Your iron/steel/mithral/adamantine skeleton bonuses can only do so much when these creatures are already so far behind.
In any case, there are many ways you could balance this ability, depending on what you want to go for. The trickiest part is the (lack of) requirement for a corpse. This puts you in a tough position; if you allow players to pick their own creature then they can bestiary-dive for some pretty powerful base forms, but if you don't allow them to pick their own creature then the ability is quite weak and inflexible. Ordinary human skeletons are going to scale terribly, even if you do allow HD equal to your own.
Here's my attempt to strike a balance. Note that you'll probably need to recalibrate Iron/Steel/Mithral/Adamantine skeletons with this approach, since the skeleton minions are significantly more powerful here. I've also moved him from being wisdom-based to charisma-based so he's not spread too thin.
Necromantic Disciple (Su): Beginning at the 1st level, a Reaver Initiate begins each day with a pool of energy gathered overnight from the natural forces of death and entropy. He may use this energy to summon forth skeletons. He may summon a number of skeletons per day equal to his class level plus his charisma modifier. These skeletons act on the Reaver's initiative and without any other order will mindlessly attack enemies unless instructed otherwise. Skeletons can follow simple verbal commands, but may have difficulty with more complicated actions. The reaver may have no more than 4 times his class level in hit dice of skeletons at a time. These skeletons last until the reaver's pool of energy next refreshes, at which point they turn to dust.
A skeleton does not require a corpse to be created. The act of creating a skeleton is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The skeleton appears in a space adjacent to the reaver. At the 1st level the reaver can only create human skeletons. At the 2nd level, these skeletons can be created with the burning skeleton or bloody skeleton templates, and the reaver can select gear from the following list: any simple or martial weapon, any light or medium armor, and any shield. The skeleton is proficient with these items, but the items turn to dust if removed from the skeleton's possession.
Starting at the 3rd level, the reaver can summon other types of creatures. By touching the corpse of a creature with HD equal or less than the reaver's and expending one use of his daily skeleton creation he can create a skeleton version of that creature. A reaver can only create one skeleton from a given corpse per day. A reaver can take a small trophy from such a corpse and keep it on his person. Skeletons created in this way cannot have the bloody skeleton or burning skeleton templates, and do not receive free weapons. Starting at the 7th level, a reaver can apply the burning or bloody skeleton template to skeletons created in this fashion.
So would you think telepathic control would be more fitting? I had them originally with that and no range limit which people looking the class over seemed to have issue with for a level 1 so I put the limit it has now.
I'd say no range limit; so long as you've got a HD limit you can only have so many at a time, and how you choose to use them is your own business. Have telepathic control come online at higher levels.
but I have to ask how clerics get more abilities when most of their levels are dead aside from spells lol.
Setting aside the semantics of whether spellcasting is a class feature: Domains. Clerics get two of them, and the good ones give some pretty kick-ass benefits.
Armed Skeletons:It should indeed say 6th, and really? cause it listed them as having a 1d4 claw attack which doesn't seem to surpass a longsword in damage unless I missed something..which is likely.
Two 1d4 claw attacks with full strength bonus on each; it's not until you get three iteratives (which doesn't happen until 15 HD) that a non-magical manufactured weapon will beat that.
Spawn Grave Champion: It has the same caps as normal besides the 2 bonus HD which don't apply, and it has whatever the HD of the skeleton you named + those 2. No you can't give it class levels (curious how someone would do that thought since it has some merit), as for the point of the champion was to have a sort of second in command of the forces. You would have your own little troop of weaker skeletons while the champion would be able to command it's own, but I can understand if it didn't come across that way.
It's not hard to see how someone might think the Grave Champion might use the rules of the Skeleton Champion template, which explicitly allows the skeletal creature to keep any class levels it had in life. I've seen people argue that the Undead Lord archetype's corpse companion allows for the Skeleton Champion template.
Anyways, the Skeleton Champion may actually be the way to go here. It does what you want (an intelligent skeleton minion) and if you restrict it to the Warrior class then it's comparable to an animal companion in terms of power. Have it be of the same race as the player character, with a number of levels in the warrior class equal to the player's reaver class levels -2.
Key for skeletons: well it actually says in Necromantic disciple that they have max hit points per die, which was something I had as a hopeful way to make it easier and have them a tad stronger. As for the rest of the column I would be lying if I said I remembered how it was formulated but I know it had something to do with the Animal Companions list. How would you recommend changing it?
I'd recommend sticking with the actual rules for skeletons. Using maximized hit points means your hit points grow much more quickly than saves and attack bonus, and feats are an unnecessary complication on monsters that should be just dumb muscle (or bone, as the case may be). Just use the natural scaling of more hit dice and bigger/better base forms. Put another way: don't reinvent the wheel, there are perfectly functioning rules for undead minions as it is.
You feel full BAB isn't pushing it? the original draft had that and many gave me a lot of flack over it so hearing the opposite opinion is welcome and surprising. As for more features I'm open to this idea, what level of changes to basic things and or what kinds of abilities might be good to add would you have in mind?
Most classes with 3/4 BAB have class features to increase their attack or damage in combat, or spellcasting to supplement it. The reaver has neither. You could always give a class feature that lets you temporarily boost your offensive capabilities (similar to the Magus' arcane pool) instead, but full BAB has the advantage of less paperwork.
I'd like to clarify specifically what I mean by "more self-sufficient in combat". One of my biggest complaints about non-caster classes in Pathfinder is how they are so dependent on their spellcasting buddies to handle anything out of the ordinary. Invisible foes, flying foes, teleporting foes... you can get creative or throw an expensive magic item at the problem, but non-casters just don't solve these kinds of issues with the same ease that casters do.
For instance, a huge strategic flaw in this class is a complete inability to deal with flying foes. Having some way to engage them or ground them (maybe a spectral skeleton hand that draws them to ground level) would do wonders for this class's ability to handle that kind of foe.
As for intelligence I see your point, but I wonder if that might over complicate things too. Like would them having an intellect make them conflict with the Initiate or clash with the "any" part of the initiates alignment, or would we just say they are subservient and always of similar alignment? I myself might just be overthinking it.
Intelligence is a requirement for having feats other than bonus feats. They can still be under the initiate's control. I'm not sure what Intelligence has to do with alignment, but in Pathfinder, the standard assumption seems to be that creating undead is evil. Since it is your homebrew, you can treat it however you like.
Part of the reason I want help with this is that I'm realizing this very point. The bonuses the skeletons get have actually remained pretty static through the history of this class, but it's main participant has gone up in down in power. I do mainly want it to be a skeleton summoner, but I'm curious what you might be thinking of with a skeleton warrior...
If you want it to be a spell-less summoner, than maybe introduce some sort of necrotic blast feature, allowing the initiate to provide ranged damage/healing/buff/debuff? Summoning skeletons gets boring really fast. Also, maybe some ability to customize skeletons (maybe they explode when killed) or gain more powerful undead as the initiate grows in power.
A martial character with necromancy powers would have to be designed differently. I'm thinking along the lines of a necromancy-focused magus. He could turn into an undead and raise fallen opponents as minions.
As for intelligence I see your point, but I wonder if that might over complicate things too. Like would them having an intellect make them conflict with the Initiate or clash with the "any" part of the initiates alignment, or would we just say they are subservient and always of similar alignment? I myself might just be overthinking it.Intelligence is a requirement for having feats other than bonus feats. They can still be under the initiate's control. I'm not sure what Intelligence has to do with alignment, but in Pathfinder, the standard assumption seems to be that creating undead is evil. Since it is your homebrew, you can treat it however you like.
Part of the reason I want help with this is that I'm realizing this very point. The bonuses the skeletons get have actually remained pretty static through the history of this class, but it's main participant has gone up in down in power. I do mainly want it to be a skeleton summoner, but I'm curious what you might be thinking of with a skeleton warrior...If you want it to be a spell-less summoner, than maybe introduce some sort of necrotic blast feature, allowing the initiate to provide ranged damage/healing/buff/debuff? Summoning skeletons gets boring really fast. Also, maybe some ability to customize skeletons (maybe they explode when killed) or gain more powerful undead as the initiate grows in power.
A martial character with necromancy powers would have to be designed differently. I'm thinking along the lines of a necromancy-focused magus. He could turn into an undead and raise fallen opponents as minions.
I mainly questioned and had strayed from them being intelligent because of our party and the others who'd reviewed the classes original draft that them being intelligent might make them question orders and if they were another alignment stuff was messy, so i just said what I did. Lazy I know.
Funny thing about the blast idea, I did actually use that in two other class designs I have, one being the Ivory Weeper which I finished and posted here some time ago. I don't know if that would work out too well though since they are mainly supposed to be in the fight with their 'unit', but something similar would definitely be a good addition in some form.
This is poorly designed yes, but I still think it has potential! Though what do you mean exactly by becoming an undead, cause they do at 20th become one.
more lots of stuff
I do actually like the idea for the main ability, of course I have a couple questions. Firstly how exactly is the pool being wisdom based spreading them too thin? Secondly if there alternatives to the Burning and Bloody skeletons that are more cold based? I don't have a problem with them really but the overall theme of undead is usually cold and I'd like to go more towards that. If it's a matter of just making the burning ones do cold instead that'd be fine too. Lastly I notice the lack of them being able to do complex actions in this one, is this because of the proposed telepathy or another reason?
On range limit and telepathy: Fair enough this is a reasonable fix.
On Clerics: I suppose, I felt they were usually lackluster but I think most casters 'extra' class features usually are, so I'm a terrible judge for that sort of thing with little actual experience playing casters.
On the Natural attacks: I'm not saying I don't see your point here, but I'm not entirely convinced they are superior at all stages. What about applying bonuses to the armaments? perhaps weapons could have a +1 bonus ability per 3 HD of the skeleton wielding it or something similar
On the Grave champion: Well I made sure not to actually mention anything about the template so there's that control method at least. Also that it didn't technically have class levels in life since it's still a summoned one, the Name and all that is just fluff but I could clear that up more. I suppose class levels aren't a terrible solution though, maybe give a bonus from the list and those? or something like a choice of the basic marital classes for levels. I really want to avoid a bunch of book keeping though for since they would have multiple skeletons.
On the Key: Part of it was just easy of use to have a number right there, but remind me on the actual rules for such a thing or where I might find it on the SRD, cause I haven't touched it since well..making this class' first drafts.
For your last observations I'll agree. I was considering a bonus akin to getting +1s to attack and damage rolls for each of your skeletons that are focusing the same enemy as you, or maybe something like Amanuensis suggested and let them charge their weapons with negative energy. Perhaps also give them a desecrate aura later. I could still do all this and full BAB in some form possibly too.
The invisible/Teleporting foes I feel would always be trouble in most forms just based on how I want to class to work, but for flying foes originally Skeletons summoned were always proficient in anything you were, so handing them longbows and arrows was an elegant solution to most flying problems. I do like the image of a big bone hand (ala MKX Shinnok).
Possible idea for the main ability:
Necromantic Disciple (Su): Beginning at the 1st level, a Reaver Initiate begins each day with a pool of energy gathered overnight from the natural forces of death and entropy. She may use this energy to summon forth skeletons. She may summon a number of skeletons per day equal to her class level plus his charisma modifier, and these skeletons have HD equal to the initiates HD-1 (minimum 1). These skeletons act on the Initiate's initiative and without any other order will mindlessly attack enemies unless instructed otherwise. Skeletons can follow simple verbal commands, but may have difficulty with more complicated actions. The initiate may have no more than 4 times his class level in hit dice of skeletons at a time. These skeletons last until the initiates's pool of energy next refreshes, at which point they turn to dust.
A skeleton does not require a corpse to be created, it is formed purely from her own necromantic power. The act of creating a skeleton is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The skeleton appears in a space adjacent to the initiate. At the 1st level the initiate can only create human skeletons. At the 2nd level, these skeletons can be created with the burning skeleton or bloody skeleton templates, and the initiate can select gear from the following list: any simple or martial weapon, any light or medium armor, and any shield. The skeleton appears with this gear and is proficient with these items, but the items turn to dust if removed from the skeleton's possession. Burning Skeletons created this way are called Fellfrost Skeletons, and have all mentions of Fire made to Cold.
Starting at the 3rd level, the initiate can summon other types of creatures. By touching the corpse of an animal, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid creature with HD equal or less than the initiates's and expending one use of her daily skeleton creation she can create a skeleton version of that creature. An initiate can only create one skeleton from a given corpse per day. An initiate can take a small trophy from such a corpse and keep it on her person. Skeletons created in this way cannot have the bloody skeleton or fellfrost skeleton templates, and do not receive free weapons.
Starting at the 7th level, an initiate can use this ability by touching the corpse of a plant, vermin, or magical beast, and may apply the fellfrost or bloody skeleton template to skeletons created in this fashion.
At 11th level her ability to strip a body to skeletal form expands to even Aberrations, Outsiders and Dragons.
Finally, at 15th level the initiate has learned to surpass even the boundaries of physical limitation. She may make a skeleton creature out of any corpse, even if it normally cannot be a skeleton or doesn’t have one by forming the image in her mind of what it once was into a boney reality. Oozes would appear as amorphous mounds of roiling bone, and constructs might appear as they were when active, but constructed from bones and sinew.
Firstly how exactly is the pool being wisdom based spreading them too thin?
One of his class features (Reaver Disciple) requires wisdom, and another (Channel Energy) requires charisma; he's spread between two mental ability scores. Classes that use two mental stats are always 9-level spellcasters who can get away with dumping their physical ability scores if they want to. As a non-caster, the reaver initiate doesn't have that luxury and will need at least passable stats across the board in every physical attribute. That leaves little for mental stats, and he's got two of them to support. That's what I mean by being spread too thin.
On Clerics: I suppose, I felt they were usually lackluster but I think most casters 'extra' class features usually are, so I'm a terrible judge for that sort of thing with little actual experience playing casters.
Clerics are, if nothing else, bland. Never mistake that for weakness, though, because they're really powerful.
On the Natural attacks: I'm not saying I don't see your point here, but I'm not entirely convinced they are superior at all stages. What about applying bonuses to the armaments? perhaps weapons could have a +1 bonus ability per 3 HD of the skeleton wielding it or something similar
Adding magical enhancement on those weapons will definitely change the comparison. I was speaking more in terms that non-magical equipment isn't a big deal (the armor is the biggest benefit). If you want to go this route, you'll need to figure out how to calibrate that.
I really want to avoid a bunch of book keeping though for since they would have multiple skeletons.
The easiest way to keep the bookkeeping down is to allow the character to build their grave champion once, and then they always summon that specific champion in the future. That keeps it to the same level of complexity and bookkeeping as an animal companion.
On the Key: Part of it was just easy of use to have a number right there, but remind me on the actual rules for such a thing or where I might find it on the SRD, cause I haven't touched it since well..making this class' first drafts.
Rules for skeletons. Scroll down to "creating a skeleton". Simply look up the base creature, then apply the specified changes. Skeletons are pretty easy to create since for the most part you're just removing abilities from the base form. It's a skeleton of the original in more ways than one ;-)
Moving along...
and these skeletons have HD equal to the initiates HD-1 (minimum 1)
Base it on the reaver class level, not hit dice total. Otherwise you can get some weird multiclassing munchkin possibilities. Not sure why you'd go with HD-1, but if that's how you want to do it then it shouldn't be a huge issue.
By touching the corpse of an animal, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid ... plant, vermin, or magical beast ... Aberrations, Outsiders and Dragons.
I wouldn't restrict this by creature type. The HD limit already handles this nicely. If you throw something like a CR 3 River Drake at the party, there's no particular reason to restrict the reaver from using it as a base form for a minion at lower levels.
Finally, at 15th level the initiate has learned to surpass even the boundaries of physical limitation. She may make a skeleton creature out of any corpse, even if it normally cannot be a skeleton or doesn’t have one by forming the image in her mind of what it once was into a boney reality. Oozes would appear as amorphous mounds of roiling bone, and constructs might appear as they were when active, but constructed from bones and sinew.
That, on the other hand, is quite cool. I was going to say restrict it to creatures with an actual skeleton... but I love what you've done there :-)
Stuuuuuff
I didn't really think about it too much like that, I had them being primarily Wisdom, wanting it to be their big main stat while charisma was mainly a bonus for the channeling.
Yeah clerics are nothing if not bland, I know they are strong but just not a fan of how they are myself. I think we've had one cleric in the party and they said it was the most boring game they played lol.
I think applying bonuses to their weapons might be a good idea, or on the flip side what about giving the bonuses to the Initiate? Something like +1 to hit for each skeleton that attacked the same creature, or something like a scaling amount of extra d6 on attacks that interacts with targets skeletons are attacking/defending you from.
For the champion that was my intent actually, though it was pretty poorly worded in the text. Maybe it could be mor elike a Cohort than a summon? something that once made is always around like it says now, but in a more 'this is your best bud' kinda way. They are supposed to be a commander of sorts so flavor it like a right hand subordinate.
That is totally my faught I meant for that to be class level and my tired brain goofed. I was thinking the level -1 though just cause I wasn't sure how strong having like 5-6 skeletons at level 2-3 might be.
Thank you for the creation rules, though how do you calculate their health? Is average just half the normal max? I'm showing my lack of experience in such things obviously, but in our group most of the players hate having to take time aside to do stuff like that, and then we have on player who annoys them by insisting that he should get to roll for each HD amount of his summoned monsters lol.
I was honestly going for more flavor here than anything, kinda like the more complex skeletons of things being harder to raise cause you don't really know how they function/move, or maybe don't have the power to pull them through, eventually getting more and more bizarre foes to come back. I'm glad you like the final part of the idea though heh, would you say that it should remain even if the other bit doesn't?
I think applying bonuses to their weapons might be a good idea, or on the flip side what about giving the bonuses to the Initiate? Something like +1 to hit for each skeleton that attacked the same creature, or something like a scaling amount of extra d6 on attacks that interacts with targets skeletons are attacking/defending you from.
I wouldn't go this route; it just leaves him totally gimped if his skeletons get wiped out or if circumstances force him to leave them behind. The teamwork feats already give him plenty of synergy with his skeletons.
I was thinking the level -1 though just cause I wasn't sure how strong having like 5-6 skeletons at level 2-3 might be.
If you think it's a bit strong then just delay bloody/burningfellfrost skeletons a few more levels. I personally think it's fine.
Thank you for the creation rules, though how do you calculate their health? Is average just half the normal max?
Not quite; the average of 1d8 is actually 4.5, so it will be slightly higher than half of max. Always round the final result down.
Other benefits to keep in mind are charisma scores and the effect of the desecrate spell, both of which may further boost undead hit points.
I'm showing my lack of experience in such things obviously
No problem; I've got a particular affection for the rules for undead minions, and have no problem helping out those less familiar with them.
I wouldn't go this route; it just leaves him totally gimped if his skeletons get wiped out or if circumstances force him to leave them behind. The teamwork feats already give him plenty of synergy with his skeletons.If you think it's a bit strong then just delay bloody/
burningfellfrost skeletons a few more levels. I personally think it's fine.Not quite; the average of 1d8 is actually 4.5, so it will be slightly higher than half of max. Always round the final result down.
Other benefits to keep in mind are charisma scores and the effect of the desecrate spell, both of which may further boost undead hit points.
No problem; I've got a particular affection for the rules for undead minions, and have no problem helping out those less familiar with them.
I suppose so yeah. Speaking of that what do you think of something like commander auras for the skeletons?
Yeah that's probably a better idea, I'm just unsure how strong it might be, but having it be strong would be fine too, can always roll it back a bit.
So average of 4.5, I could just put that as the numbers in the key so it's a bit simpler.
Well they don't really get charisma bonuses so far, but yeah I wanted the Iron,etc to stack with an ally's or your own desecrate so that works.
Hey that sounds like good luck on my part that you saw this page lol
Can't seem to edit my last post, but I was a derp and forgot the burning and bloody templates gave charisma
Is this too conservative or a step in the right direction?
Empowered Arsenal (Ex): At 4th level the initiate can squeeze out a bit of extra power into her skeletons to have their equipment enhanced. She may spend two uses of her summoning pool to have all gear that skeleton has gain a +1 enhancement bonus. At 9th, 14th, and 19th levels this enhancement bonus increases by 1, and each previous enhancement no longer requires two uses of summoning (for example at 9th level skeletons are always summoned with +1 enhancement, and at 14th they are always summoned with +2 enhancement).
Weapons these skeletons are summoned with may have any of their enhancement bonus instead converted to any weapon ability of equal value.
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