By RAW grease is not difficult terrain (though I don't normally play it that way, it makes more sense to count as difficult terrain to me). It merely halves your movement.
The slow spell also halves your movement.
Can anyone site a rule (or make a case for) that the slow spell prevents taking a 5' step? Aside from some other penalties slow applies, slow and grease behave in the same way in regards to how far you can move during a move action - and whether you can take a 5' step or not (you can, unless your speed has been reduced to 5'). Unless of course you house rule the area of the grease as difficult terrain - then you can't 5' into it. You could still 5' out of it.
EDIT: This is a "What's the DC to jump a 10' pit" question all over again. If you can move from one square to another with 5' of movement, its a real stretch to suggest that the 5' step has some unwritten rules that make it behave differently. If the cost is 5', its 5', which is what a 5' step "costs".
The slow spell also halves your movement.
Actually, it halves your speed, which is different. Also, it can't reduce your movement rate below 5 ft.
I'd argue that walking out of Grease (Grease square to normal square) is neither walking within (Grease square to Grease square) or walking through (normal square to Grease square(s) to normal square).
Regarding your definition, how is "walking within (Grease square to Grease square)" functionally any different than "walking through (normal square to Grease square(s) to normal square)"? In both cases (of this definition), you enter a square with Grease and suffer the consequences (or make your Save and don't suffer them). Why does it matter where you came from or whether that square also had Grease?
It doesn't.
If you move INTO a square with Grease, deal with the Grease. Period.
Except, it's not "period" because Grease has that word "within" in its description - that's where the only confusion comes from.
Did the author intend for Grease to only apply when you move into a square containing Grease? I doubt it, or else there would be no reason to include "within" in the description text. But he did include it, and it cannot mean the definition I quoted above since that definition of "within" is functionally identical with "into".
Did the author intend for Grease to apply when you're moving OUT of a square, as if the word "within" was supposed to mean "starting within"? I think so, but it's certainly not clear that it must be the intent.
I agree with DM_Blake - it seems to me that the phrase "within or through" is intended to indicate that any normal movement that enters or starts in a greased area is subject to a DC 10 Acrobatics check in order to allow half-speed movement (and a Reflex save to avoid falling if the check is failed).
However, if you make the check, you can take a 5-foot step either out of the greased area or into another part of the greased area (since "your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness"). You would only be prevented from taking a 5-foot step if your halved speed was 5 feet or less - you'd then need to use a move action to move the 5 feet.
Withing just means if you move from one grease square to another square that is also within the area of the grease.
By RAW grease is not difficult terrain (though I don't normally play it that way, it makes more sense to count as difficult terrain to me). It merely halves your movement.
The slow spell also halves your movement.
Can anyone site a rule (or make a case for) that the slow spell prevents taking a 5' step? Aside from some other penalties slow applies, slow and grease behave in the same way in regards to how far you can move during a move action - and whether you can take a 5' step or not (you can, unless your speed has been reduced to 5'). Unless of course you house rule the area of the grease as difficult terrain - then you can't 5' into it. You could still 5' out of it.
EDIT: This is a "What's the DC to jump a 10' pit" question all over again. If you can move from one square to another with 5' of movement, its a real stretch to suggest that the 5' step has some unwritten rules that make it behave differently. If the cost is 5', its 5', which is what a 5' step "costs".
This isn't the same thing. Slow halves your movement, Grease halves movement.
For example:
You are trying to full attack someone who is a 5' step away from you. Before you act someone casts Grease in the square you need to move in to full-attack.
It costs 10' to move into a square of grease. By extension you can't 5' step into Grease because it costs 10' to get into.
Now remove the Grease. And someone casts slow on you. Your movement drops to 15', but that square is only 5' away. So you can totally 5' step into it.
Actually, it halves your speed, which is different. Also, it can't reduce your movement rate below 5 ft.
The slow spell also halves your movement.
Ah yes. Thank you. I meant to say speed. Which is also exactly what grease does.
A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed...
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed...
The only difference being slow puts you at half normal speed all the time. Grease puts you at half normal speed only if you move within or through it.
It costs 10' to move into a square of grease. By extension you can't 5' step into Grease because it costs 10' to get into.
No it doesn't say it works like that. It says your speed is halved within grease. Which as far as determining total distance that could be moved they would amount to the same thing. But difficult terrain/hampered movement is not the same thing as halved speed.
Note that grease is missing a critical component to make it work like I think it should.
The entire area of the web is considered difficult terrain
or
The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.
I personally think that missing text is an oversight. But the rules text is was what it is. Without that text, grease is not difficult terrain - which in turn means it does not affect the 5' step.
It still costs 10' to move into Grease and 5' step only moves you 5', by extension you can't 5' step into it. However, you can still 5' step to any square around you that would cost 5' to move in to.
The confusing part is knowing how much movement it costs to move out of Grease. The way it is written implies it should cost 10', and I think it should. But, that goes against the spirit of the rules in all other situations where hampered movement comes up.
Grease doesn't impede your movement it impedes your stopping
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From the PRD: " A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details)."
To me you cannot do a 5 foot step because it seems to imply that you need to make an Acrobatics check BEFORE you start any movement. We all agree that a 5 ft step is still movement, right? So automatically if you need to make that Acrobatics check, then you are automatically moving at half speed.
Just my 2 coppers....
From the PRD: " A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details)."
To me you cannot do a 5 foot step because it seems to imply that you need to make an Acrobatics check BEFORE you start any movement. We all agree that a 5 ft step is still movement, right? So automatically if you need to make that Acrobatics check, then you are automatically moving at half speed.
Just my 2 coppers....
So... can you take a 5' step when you have a slow spell on you. The slow spell also means you are automatically moving at half speed.
Moving at half speed is an entirely different thing than having movement cost for a grid doubled.
For example. if I have 60 dollars, and a pair of shoes costs ten, if someone steals 30 dollars from me, does that change how much the pair of shoes cost? No, of course not, the shoes still cost 10. Just because I only have half as much money as I used to does not change that fact.
Grease halves my movement speed (for most creatures from 30' to 15'. A 5' step is still just 5' of movement, and can cost 5 of 15 or 5 of 30, it doesn't matter. If my speed is 15', I can choose to use 5', 10' or 15' of my allowed movement as a move action. Or if I don't use a move action to move I can take a 5' step so long as:
1) It is not difficult terrain.
2) It is not dark.
3) My current speed is greater than 5'.
Grease is not called out as difficult terrain (I think it should be - or at minimum call out that it doubles the movement cost through squares with grease in them, rather than stating your speed is halved).
Grease does not cause darkness.
If my speed halved due to grease becomes 5' then I cannot 5' step.
Acrobatics check really has nothing to do with it. A narrow ledge requires an acrobatics check to be able to move at half speed (there is that half speed again instead of double the movement cost). So a character on a narrow ledge, with a successful acrobatics check could also 5' step along that ledge.
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From the PRD: " A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details)."
To me you cannot do a 5 foot step because it seems to imply that you need to make an Acrobatics check BEFORE you start any movement. We all agree that a 5 ft step is still movement, right? So automatically if you need to make that Acrobatics check, then you are automatically moving at half speed.
Just my 2 coppers....
So... can you take a 5' step when you have a slow spell on you. The slow spell also means you are automatically moving at half speed.
Moving at half speed is an entirely different thing than having movement cost for a grid doubled.
For example. if I have 60 dollars, and a pair of shoes costs ten, if someone steals 30 dollars from me, does that change how much the pair of shoes cost? No, of course not, the shoes still cost 10. Just because I only have half as much money as I used to does not change that fact.
Grease halves my movement speed (for most creatures from 30' to 15'. A 5' step is still just 5' of movement, and can cost 5 of 15 or 5 of 30, it doesn't matter. If my speed is 15', I can choose to use 5', 10' or 15' of my allowed movement as a move action. Or if I don't use a move action to move I can take a 5' step so long as:
1) It is not difficult terrain.
2) It is not dark.
3) My current speed is greater than 5'.Grease is not called out as difficult terrain (I think it should be - or at minimum call out that it doubles the movement cost through squares with grease in them, rather than stating your speed is halved).
Grease does not cause darkness.
If my speed halved due to grease becomes 5' then I cannot 5' step.Acrobatics check really has nothing to do with it. A narrow ledge requires an acrobatics check to be able to move at half speed...
1) Absolutely a creature can take a 5-foot step if effected by slow.
From the PRD: You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature." This is why IMO the slow spell and grease shouldn't be consider together.2) I do have to disagree with you about "Acrobatics check really having nothing to do with it." It is not listed as difficult terrain because it is an obstacle.
From the PRD under Tactical Movement: "Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, and poor visibility can hamper movement (see Table: Hampered Movement for details). When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move." Now there is a chart there that lists the conditions and the line listed with obstacle it mentions "may require a skill check". Since Grease mentions that you need to make an Acrobatics check, it leads me to believe that you cannot make a 5-foot step. If you stand still = no check. If you start to do any movement = make a check. So if you move, you make a check and it costs you 10 feet to get out of the Grease spell even if you are on the edge.
Now I totally agree that the spell could use tweeking. When it says, "A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal....", I believed they should have replaced the word "walk" with "move".
Edit to add more: I agree (and play) that you can move out of difficult terrain with a 5-foot step. Only difference between that and Grease (and I think Entangle) is that it makes you do a skill check, hence why I believe Grease is an obstacle and means why you can't do a 5-foot step.
Ah yes. Thank you. I meant to say speed. Which is also exactly what grease does.
Not exactly. It causes you to move at half your movement speed. The 5' step is not based on your movement speed.
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The way I've always understood it, you only count difficult terrain, and other areas deleterious to your speed, when you move INTO them, not OUT of them.
I don't see why grease should be any different. Why over-complicate the matter just for the sake of a spell that could have been written ever so slightly more clearly?
Consider this: An area of grease is 10' wide. How much movement does it take to cross it?
I would say 25'. Square 1, 10'. Square 2, 20 feet. Square 3, 25'.
That would make it double the distance for the two squares that you travel through with Grease.
If you say that the step out of grease is another 10' rather than 5', wouldn't you be saying it takes 30' to cross the 10' grease area? Isn't that more than double?
I agree with the position that a 5' step out is plausible but I would require the acrobatics check to do it. I think it addresses the penalties of grease without changing the movement rules.
honestly, this thread is about Grease, not Slow.
Why don't you start a different thread?
That way if someone does a messageboard search on the topic it'll make sense.
Slow is relevant because the wording is very similar, which I quoted up above, but will do so again here:
A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed...
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed...
But even better is a couple of quotes from solid fog.
Creatures moving through a solid fog move at half their normal speed...
And then later
A creature cannot take a 5-foot-step while in solid fog.
Why is a similar phrase absent from the grease spell?
The way I've always understood it, you only count difficult terrain, and other areas deleterious to your speed, when you move INTO them, not OUT of them.
This is exactly what has me torn. Grease ties the half speed to an acrobatics check, so that if you're making an acrobatics check you're moving half speed.
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.
If you're making that Acrobatics check then you're moving at half speed.
I think to get out of grease you need to make that Acrobatics check because you're walking out from within the area of grease.
Where I keep waffling around is what that means.
Assuming movement speed of 30', moving through 1 greased square, and passing your acrobatics check.
-It costs 10' to move into a greased square. You're able to move 5 squares this turn. You can't 5' step into a greased square in this case because it costs 10' movement to get into, and 5' step only pays 5'.
-You're speed is halved. You're able to move 3 squares this turn. You can 5' step because 5' is less than half your movement.
-Some combination of the above, however your movement counts as hampered so in both cases this would also apply.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.
But that would require reading that as a list of examples rather than an explicit declaration of what is hampered movement. For instance, can you 5' step into a square with an obstacle? Which *is* hampered movement, but *not* difficult terrain or darkness.
So that's the rabbit hole I'm trying to work myself out of.
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Going into role playing here to show how the rules are applied...
I am in a square that is greased, made my initial Reflex Save not to fall prone, and make an Acrobatics check to step out of the slippery (non-flammable) stuff. On the safe ground now, I take a moment to wipe some of the excess grease off my shoes. Man, I just bought them too, look at that!
I believe the Grease, as the spell, prevents 5 foot steps as long as you are in the spells area of effect. It is a part of what the spell is for, slowing down opponents and hampering their movement. (or having items slip through their fingers)
Sure, you can use 5 foot of movement to get out of the spells effect, but that full attack action you wanted... not happening.
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Sigh. Here we are again, trying to equate real-world physics with Pathfinder rules.
The rules are a simplification. They don't try and model every last detail of what happens in real life - just to provide a workable system. Movement is quantized in units of 5', so you can't really model precisely what happens when you step between two different types of terrain.
The Pathfinder rules choose to apply the effects of the terrain being moved into. That's why stepping into a square of grease (either from outside the area of the grease, or from another square within the area) takes a penalty. But stepping out doesn't, so you can take that 5' step and get your full attack. Sure, it's unrealistic. But trying to apply a penalty when you step out is ignoring the fact that you paid the full penalty for stepping into the greased area, even though some of that movement was really in terrain outside the area of the grease.
AQs somebody up-thread pointed out, this is just like the recent storm in a teacup over the DC to leap over a 10' pit.
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My point is that because of the spell, a move action is required to move out of that spell's area of effect. That is what the spell does, it's effect.
For all intents and purposes, it is, as mentioned above, hampering movement. Making an acrobatics check makes it so that the character can't make the 5 foot step, whether it is to get away from being hit with an AoO or to make a full attack on a target. If you fail the check itself, you then have to do another Reflex Save to not fall prone.
It isn't difficult terrain, it is specifically a spell effect that makes it difficult to transverse the terrain it is effecting.
Please look at the situation in Rise of the Goblin's Guild,
This turns the area into a spell effected obstacle and Difficult Terrain at the same time.
Overall, what I said in the previous post runs true. The area is slick, you steady yourself and carefully step out of the area. This, to me, is not a 5 foot step.
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My point is that because of the spell, a move action is required to move out of that spell's area of effect. That is what the spell does, it's effect.
For all intents and purposes, it is, as mentioned above, hampering movement. Making an acrobatics check makes it so that the character can't make the 5 foot step, whether it is to get away from being hit with an AoO or to make a full attack on a target. If you fail the check itself, you then have to do another Reflex Save to not fall prone.
It isn't difficult terrain, it is specifically a spell effect that makes it difficult to transverse the terrain it is effecting.
Please look at the situation in Rise of the Goblin's Guild, ** spoiler omitted **
This turns the area into a spell effected obstacle and Difficult Terrain at the same time.
** spoiler omitted **
Overall, what I said in the previous post runs true. The area is slick, you steady yourself and carefully step out of the area. This, to me, is not a 5 foot step.
You do not need to make an acrobatics check to leave, only to "move through" or "move into." Moving into a square outside of Grease IS NOT THE SAME as moving into a square within Grease.
It's not the same as 'moving into', but it is the same as 'moving within', which requires a check.
I think the rules get muddled here. I can't prove you are wrong, but I don't think you are correct.
I liken it to Fog Cloud and how my group adjudicates it.
"The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can't use sight to locate the target)."
Clearly, if you are in the cloud and looking through more of it, creatures more than 5' away are not visible. But if you are on the edge of it and looking out, there is no reason why you can't see a creature 20' away (baring other conditions).
I liken the "seeing out" of fog cloud to "stepping out" of grease, or any other area of effect.
It has clearly been shown that you pay the movement cost when entering a square, not when exiting and that cost is based on the square entered, not the one left.
So if you are standing in lava when you start your turn, you don't get burnt because you are going to move out of it and it won't affect you this turn because of it?
You are in the hazard, regardless of what your plans are, the hazard exists and you started your turn in it.
So if you are standing in lava when you start your turn, you don't get burnt because you are going to move out of it and it won't affect you this turn because of it?
Standing in lava. Always a great example because we can relate to that in our own experience...
But since you asked, the answer is "Yes, I don't get burned this round because I am moving out of the lava". That's the short answer.
What follows is the long answer. Long enough that I'll put in in a Spoiler to conserve space.
Here is a simple map:
S . . L . D
Where S = Skylancer4, L = Lava, D = Destination, and the dots are safe empty squares.
Now, if Skylancer4 wants to move to D and must move through the lava, assuming there is no way around and he must move through the lava, his move goes 5', 5', 10' (the lava is difficult terrain), 5', then 5' onto the destination square. 30' total.
My question is, does Skylancer4 take damage when he moves INTO the lava and then take damage again when he steps OUT OF the lava? Does this one simple move action allow the lava to damage him twice during the one move?
I think everybody would say "No, he is not damaged twice. He is only damaged one time."
Then the second question is WHEN is he damaged, moving into the lava OR moving out of it?
That answer is a little less obvious so I'll alter the scenario a tiny bit and say that instead of lava, the obstacle is a pit. In that case, WHEN does he fall, when he enters the space with the pit or when he exits the space with the pit?
I hope nobody suggests that Skylancer4 should be able to enter the space with the pit and "fly" across the entire space without falling, like Wiley Coyote, but then when he exits the space and his feet are once again on firm ground on the far side of the pit, THAT is when he falls.
Nobody is saying that, right? Please?
So, that precedent tells us the pit (and falling into it) is applied when Skylancer4 steps into the space where the pit is located. And we should be easily able to apply that precedent to every other kind of hazard, including lava.
Therefore, the answer to the second question is that Skylancer4 is damaged when he steps INTO the lava but not damaged when he steps out of it.
Of course, this logic applies to the scenario I stated in this post: one simple move of 30' that contains one space of lava partway through the move.
So let's change the scenario a bit for the third question:
S . . . . . L . D
I've extended the space so that Skylancer4 is starting 40' away from his Destination and the Lava is 30' away from him right now. The move will take 45' because the Lava counts as 10' due to being difficult terrain.
Poor Skylancer4 only has a 30' move rate so he needs to use a double move to reach his Destination. So in effect, he'll move 30' and his first move will end in the Lava but he'll immediately move another 15' to the Destination space. This is a double move that takes place entirely in Skylancer4's turn.
The third question is, does Skylancer4 take damage twice now that he's using a double move?
The answer is still "No" because he's really just moving 45' feet in this one turn. He'll move INTO the lava, take his damage, and keep moving on to the destination square without taking any damage when he moves OUT OF the lava.
Now let's the final question, using the same expanded map. Imagine that Skylancer4 spends a standard action shooting his bow at some enemy (not shown), then makes the same move to the destination square. Now he only has a move action so he moves 30' and ends his turn in the lava, taking damage as we've described here in this post. Next round he begins his turn in the lava and continues his move without stopping.
Does Skylancer4 take damage twice in this scenario, once when he enters the lava on round one and once when he exits the lava on round two?
Again, the answer is "No" because he is continuing his movement and we've already established that the damage for moving through a square of lava is only applied once when he enters the lava's square.
In conclusion, when you move into and out of the lava, you only get burned one time, as you enter the lava's space, even if your movement spreads across two rounds.
The rules for lava, in case anyone still thinks they're relevant:
"Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure...
Damage from lava continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact..."
So it's based on how long you're in the lava for. I'd interpret it that if you end one turn in lava, and leave immediately on the start of your next turn, that would count as one round of exposure, and if you passed through it on your turn, we'd round up to one round.
The rules for lava, in case anyone still thinks they're relevant:
"Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure...Damage from lava continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact..."
Yes, but the damage after leaving it is not terribly relevant - it's the same regardless of whether you are damaged by the lava once, twice, or ten times - as soon as you leave it, you begin determining the damage in the subsequent rounds separately from the question of how much you were damaged before you left the lava.
So it's based on how long you're in the lava for. I'd interpret it that if you end one turn in lava, and leave immediately on the start of your next turn, that would count as one round of exposure, and if you passed through it on your turn, we'd round up to one round.
Agreed. In both cases, you're damaged once, right wen you step into the lava, but not again when you leave the lava.
But it might be a bad idea to stand in the lava round after round doing stuff but taking the "2d6 points of damage per round of exposure" each round while you stay in the lava's square.