Cleave, Cleaving Finish, Power Attack, Vital Strike

[Glord Funkelhand]

Currently trying to figure out how stuff is supposed to work.

Power Attack is not a special attack action. It simply allows me to take a penalty to my attack roll to get a bonus on my damage roll.

So I should be able to combine that with Cleave, which is a special attack that needs to be announced. Cleave allows me to attack a 2nd foe on a hit

Cleaving Finish on the other hand simply triggers when I strike down a foe, and also gives me another hit.

Let's say I declare a "power attacking cleave" and strike down my foe.
I should now get 2 additional attacks at my full BAB. One from cleave, one from cleaving finish, am I correct?
Since Power Attack is active until my next turn, I should get the affects on al 3 attacks that round, right?

Also, I figure that:
The bonus attack from cleave will allow me to do another cleave (if I have greater cleave), the bonus attack from cleaving finish will not trigger another cleave, even if it was "triggered" by strike down from the cleave.
How am I supposed to resolve my attacks in the case that I get bonus attacks from cleave and cleaving finish?

Are the following assumptions correct?
a) I can combine power attack and vital strike, but not vital strike and cleave
b) I cannot use vital strike for the attack I get from Cleaving Finish or cleave, since they are "melee attacks" not "attack actions"

[Kalindlara]

You appear to have it all correct. ^_^

[Dasrak]

Quote:

I should now get 2 additional attacks at my full BAB. One from cleave, one from cleaving finish, right?

Correct

Quote:

Since Power Attack is active until my next turn, I should get the affects on al 3 attacks that round, right?

Correct

Quote:

a) I can combine power attack and vital strike, but not vital strike and cleave

Correct

Quote:

b) I cannot use vital strike for the attack I get from Cleaving Finish or cleave, since they are "melee attacks" not "attack actions"

Correct

You've got it worked out. Vital Strike and Cleave are actions in their own right, and incompatible with anything else that's an action. Power Attack is not an action, simply a decision you make whenever you perform any kind of attack, so it's compatible with everything.

[Kalindlara]

Note that there is a feat in the upcoming Weapon Master's Handbook that will allow you to add your Vital Strike damage to both Cleave attacks - if that's what you're going for. ^_^

[Glord Funkelhand]

I just edited that one in:

Also, I figure that:
The bonus attack from cleave will allow me to do another cleave (if I have greater cleave), the bonus attack from cleaving finish will not trigger another cleave, even if it was "triggered" by strike down from the cleave.
How am I supposed to resolve my attacks in the case that I get bonus attacks from cleave and cleaving finish?

Thanks a lot, you guys are fast :)

[Dasrak]

Quote:

The bonus attack from cleave will allow me to do another cleave (if I have greater cleave), the bonus attack from cleaving finish will not trigger another cleave, even if it was "triggered" by strike down from the cleave.

How am I supposed to resolve my attacks in the case that I get bonus attacks from cleave and cleaving finish?

This one is ambiguous enough that you might get a slightly different interpretation from one GM to the next.

I would rule that you can choose to take your free attacks in any order you wish. If you got two free attacks (one from Great Cleave and one from Cleaving Finish) I would require you to declare which attack you are choosing to make. Your Great Cleave can continue to generate free attacks in accordance to the rules, while your Cleaving Finish is separate and does not impact your chain of free attacks. Other GM's might do things slightly differently, as the sequencing interaction here is not explicitly spelled out.

[Rhyban Icethrona]

If I use Cleave and I kill a gobelin, I will have 2 free attacks.
So I can do :

A B .
. X .
. C D
I use Cleave. I attack A and kill it. I use my free attack from Cleave to attack B then I use my free attack from Cleaving finish to attack C

Or

I use Cleave. I attack A and kill it. I use my free attack from Cleaving finish to attack C then I use my free attack from Cleave to attack D ? (Because D is adjacent to my previous foes C)

[Imbicatus]

Kalindlara wrote:

Note that there is a feat in the upcoming Weapon Master's Handbook that will allow you to add your Vital Strike damage to both Cleave attacks - if that's what you're going for. ^_^

Yes, but it has Improved Vital Strike as a prereq. You basically lower your Vital Strike damage by one die to apply it to a cleave. It's also not technically a vital strike, so you couldn't apply vital strike riders to it either. It's cool, but I don't know if it's worth it.

[Kalindlara]

Imbicatus wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

Note that there is a feat in the upcoming Weapon Master's Handbook that will allow you to add your Vital Strike damage to both Cleave attacks - if that's what you're going for. ^_^

Yes, but it has Improved Vital Strike as a prereq. You basically lower your Vital Strike damage by one die to apply it to a cleave. It's also not technically a vital strike, so you couldn't apply vital strike riders to it either. It's cool, but I don't know if it's worth it.

You're not wrong. I deeply value the idea of making game options effective and useful.

On the other hand, I love Vital Strike and routinely make very poor decisions.

[Ridiculon]

Rhyban Icethrona wrote:

If I use Cleave and I kill a gobelin, I will have 2 free attacks.

So I can do :

A B .
. X .
. C D
I use Cleave. I attack A and kill it. I use my free attack from Cleave to attack B then I use my free attack from Cleaving finish to attack C

Or

I use Cleave. I attack A and kill it. I use my free attack from Cleaving finish to attack C then I use my free attack from Cleave to attack D ? (Because D is adjacent to my previous foes C)

The first one is correct, the second one requires a feat (Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer, or Giant Killer) to work.

Your wording is incorrect here when you say "I use Cleave. I attack A ...", it should be "I Cleave A" to clear up the misunderstanding. Cleave is its own action in the same way that attacking is its own action.

EDIT: I also missed Cleave Through, which would make it work if you took a 5 foot step

[Errant Mercenary]

Kalindlara wrote:

Note that there is a feat in the upcoming Weapon Master's Handbook that will allow you to add your Vital Strike damage to both Cleave attacks - if that's what you're going for. ^_^

And feats to make people flat footed to your Cleaves.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Flat-footed to cleaves is already in place.
Surprise Follow-Thru/Imp. Surprise Follow-Thru from the APG.
It is listed in the Half-Orc section, but does not have the requirement to be a Half-Orc to take it like the Dwarven Cleave Feats do.

[Ridiculon]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Flat-footed to cleaves is already in place.

Surprise Follow-Thru/Imp. Surprise Follow-Thru from the APG.
It is listed in the Half-Orc section, but does not have the requirement to be a Half-Orc to take it like the Dwarven Cleave Feats do.

O.O

you just made my Cleaving Chain Flail Master Dwarf a very happy munchkin

[TGMaxMaxer]

It's even better when you get the Dorn Dergar and the feats to switch reach as a swift. "You can take a swift action before, after, or during another action, even between attacks."

So, you can Gr Cleave through the 5ft range, then swift switch to continue swinging through the 10ft range.

[Ridiculon]

Mmmhm, i had been taking advantage of the darting viper stuff already, but denying dex to my secondary targets is going to be a huge quality of life boost.

My dwarf's name is Tim "Mook Destroyer" Bludd, he uses a large size (thanks to chain flail master) dorn dergar with lead blades on it, plus he gets enlarged most of the time. And now he can deal with dex builds too.