I'm looking for ways to optimize my sorcerer, and i see that in guides to sorcerers and wizards that people write, they rate Enervation (4th circle) as a very effective single target debuff/blast spell.
Why? It has no save, but requires a touch attack which has pretty much the same chances to affect the target. The average 2.5 negative levels that spell bestows, only give 2,5 points penalty to attack, 2,5 points penalty to worst saves, and 12,5 hp damage.
This spell stacks with itself, but so does hit point damage. Save or lose spell like Stinking Cloud, or Blindness/Deafness, or even Ear-Piercing Scream seem more effective to me.
Touch attacks are fairly easy to hit with actually. Especially against bigger opponents who have the damage output you'd want to weaken. Stinking cloud is also great, but offers a Fort save.
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It's nearly guaranteed to hit, has a decent range, offers no save, stacks with everything, and is rarely resisted (except undead/constructs). Additionally, no matter what you're trying to help with it will work: direct damage, weaken their attacks, and lower their saves. Basically, it's the replacement fallback spell for magic missile. Not usually the best, but almost always useful. Pretty good for a wizard, but especially nice for a sorcerer.
By the time your Sorcerer can cast Enervation (8th level) he probably has at least a +6 to-hit (+4 BaB, 14 Dex).
Let's pull some CR 8 creatures I've fought or ran recently:
-Marsh Giant (12 AC).
-Dire Tiger (11 AC)
-Erinyes (17 AC)
So, you have a 50% chance to hit an enemy with a pretty HIGH AC, and a much greater than 50% chance for most other creatures (they tend to cap out around 13 Touch, which gives you a 65% chance of success).
Meanwhile, let's look at their saves. Most things that inflict those similar penalties (to-hit and saves most primarily) are Fort or Will saves. Your save bonus probably tops out at 20 for a 4th level spell (21 with Spell Focus) between a 22 casting stat and the spell level.
-Marsh Giant (+12 Fort, +8 Will) -40% chance of success at Fort, 60% at Will (For you. Opposite for it failing.)
-Dire Tiger (+12 Fort, +5 Will) -Same Fort, but a whopping 75% chance of success at Will.
-Erinyes (Fort +11, Will +7) -50% success Fort, 55% Will
Now, take into account that you are not (without reading the statblock directly) going to know what an enemy's save bonuses are. You can make educated guesses as to what its high save is (Fort for big creatures, Will for casters, etc.) but there's a large variance even among these three samples.
That variance is very nearly nonexistent for Touch ACs.
Enervation is a very CONSISTENT option, even if it's not always the BEST option, which make sit a very good staple spell to have. It works on anything that's not undead, so you don't have to worry about immunities. 90% of the time you have at least a 50% chance of success when using it, and it applies quite a hefty debuff.
There are many better spells, but most of these spells are more specialized. All Enchantment and Illusion spells, for example.
Not sure where you are getting the -1.9 to attacks, and -.75 to worst saves. According to negative levels it does:
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on:
all ability checks,
attack rolls,
combat maneuver checks,
saving throws,
and skill checks.
Not sure where you are getting the -1.9 to attacks, and -.75 to worst saves. According to negative levels it does:
For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on:
all ability checks,
attack rolls,
combat maneuver checks,
saving throws,
and skill checks.
Because the spell bestows more than one on average.
My bad, i calculated the attack and save penalty wrong.
But still, even if touch attacks are better than targeting worst save (for large opponents), but even if it's guaranteed to hit, it's not with a 4th circle spellslot slot to waste. Metamagically Persistent Blindness or Hideous Laughter have better chance of penetrating enemy saves than Enervation + cleric's save or lose spell, and it doesn't require two spells.
Or delay action + wand of Ill Omen could do the trick for cleric's save or lose spell, they would get worse penalty, and this spell can't fail on natural 1 like touch attack.
If you want to make enemy brutes weaker, Tanglefoot Bag is better and much cheaper than 4th circle spellslot, it can glue opponents to the floor or make flying creatures drop like stones on failed save, but even if they succed on save, it bestows penalty of -2 to attack, -2 to AC, seems better than -2.5 to attack from Enervation. For stacking, use net next round.
And stacking thing, Fireball also stacks with itself and with party damage.
Why? It has no save, but requires a touch attack which has pretty much the same chances to affect the target. The average 2.5 negative levels that spell bestows, only give 1.9 points penalty to attack, 0.75 point penalty to worst saves, and 12,5 hp damage.
Part of the problem is that you have not read the negative level rules correctly. Every negative level is a flat -1 on all rolls - you don't recalculate saves etc. The average 2.5 negative levels is -2.5 attack, saves, skills, caster levels plus the 12.5 damage. If you roll well you could be looking at a general 20% drop in effectiveness of the target, which is especially useful if you have other casters in the party who would appreciate the drop in saves. However, it is a bit situational: is only really useful when either focused on (empower/maximise) or against very powerful foes who shrug off save based spells.
One intepretation of the rules (which I would follow in this case if you think it is underpowered) also makes it so spells become uncastable if your negative levels prevent you from achieving the minimum caster level. This makes enervation fantastic vs spellcasters.
will never break SR from a wand
Yeah, i forgot that penetrating SR with a wand is almost impossible.
Also they just get to keep saving until they make it.
Actually Hideous Laughter offers only 2 saves, but yeagh it's not the best SoL spell, i offered it as an example for penetrating will save.
Persistent Blindness is a much better comparison... but doesn't generally do much to help you hit or land a save or suck/die. It helps protect you from the monster but it doesn't make the monster weaker to you (generally).
Blindness greatly helps to hit an enemy since they lose dex bonus to AC, and additional -2 penalty to AC. It doesn't need to help land save or suck spell, it is save or suck spell, you can make full attack against an enemy and than make 5-foot step, once the beast figures what you are doing, it will still have to guess on which of 3 squares you stand, and after that it still have 50% miss chance. Or you can shoot the victim safely from range. Of course it can try to escape with half speed, but so can do the victim of Enervation.
Tanglefoot bag is also good... but doesn't damage the opponent, make them more likely to fail anything but a reflex save (the least useful), and uses up your standard action for a minor debuff a level 1 barbarian has a good chance of removing in a single hit.
It's not a job of the caster to damage opponents, 12,5 damage can never compare to average 80 damage a warrior with two-handed sword does on 10th level. But penalty to attack is almost the same as Enervation penalty, and -2 penalty to AC helps warrior to defeat it faster, therefore reducing damage he will take until opponent is defeated. But yes, opponent can scrap away the goo, although it would take one of his attacks. It woulf be the first attack if warrior will make 5-foot step.
Enervation is great because it also reduces caster level, and skill checks. It works against a lot of targets (not Undead), and set up your Save or Suck spells.
Consider a high, top end fight sgainst a BBEG, that takes several turns. A dragon? A couple of enervstions give him -25 max hp (not damage. Max hp. Relevant if he can heal himself, specially with Heal). -5 to skill checks and level related stuff, including concentration checks to cast defensively. -5 CL to spells an SLA, which often means less damage, sometimes less duration (for rnd/lvl SLA and spells) and much easier Dispel against those. -5 to hit, which raises the party's frontline AC by 5. And -5 to saves, which makes everybody's spells more usefull. All you need to do is to hit touch AC. With big feat ass monsters, that's easy. Check the touch AC of dragons or giants, for example. It sucks.
Enervation, like all debuffs, shine more in difficult, long battles. Against a mob of mooks, an ibtensified fireball or any AOE save/suck spell will do better
Consider for example that you fight vs an armored antipsladin of some sort. Enervation probably hit easy (not so high touch AC), while savevor suck will have a tough day landing vs his saves.
A single hit gives him -2.5 to attacks, -2.5 to saves, -2.5 damage (less smite good), -2.5 concentración checks, -2.5 caster lvl, -12.5 max hp. Those stack with shaken, fatigued, entangled, sickened, etc. And they stack with themselves.
If you want to make enemy brutes weaker, Tanglefoot Bag is better and much cheaper than 4th circle spellslot, it can glue opponents to the floor or make flying creatures drop like stones on failed save, but even if they succed on save, it bestows penalty of -2 to attack, -2 to AC, seems better than -2.5 to attack from Enervation. For stacking, use net next round.
but tanglefoot bags neither reduce the target chances to dispel stuff you and your party cast, nor does it easier for you and your party to dispel what the BBEG casts. It doesn't reduce de damage from his SLA and spells. Plus you can do both in the same round (your familiar has opposable thumbs, right?)
And stacking thing, Fireball also stacks with itself and with party damage.
And I'm pretty sure most guides suggest that you should cast enervation vs some enemies, and fireball vs some others. I know my own guide to sorcerers suggest s pretty intensive use of fireball vs mooks and low threat targets, and reccomends Enervation (plus other spells) for high end bosses that need debuffs. You shouldn't be enervating random trolls in a random encounter
In the AP I am running, 2 back-to-back enervation spells (one per round) killed a 6th level PC in the AP I am running.
He was an uber-optimized aasimer archer paladin. Level-drained to death.
I'd say that is more powerful than any other 2 spells at that level; especially with no saves.
Overall, from looking at it, it's a great spell for the case of 'tough single boss monster fight'. It's really good at its job, with a good variety of targets, and if the player is old enough he or she will cackle about the monsters getting to lose levels instead of his or her favourite character from back in the day.
If I ever did a sorcerer, hell yes Enervation is going on the spells known list.
I know tanglefoot bags can replicate a few features, but unless you're using them round after round they do eventually expire -- negative levels hang out for a little longer than most battles (seven hours at minimum). Now, you can run out of spells, of course. Then again, I'd be sorely tempted to make a wand of this spell, despite being a level four. Fifty touch attacks for 1d4 negative levels that last 7 hours on anything I don't like within 40'. I think the range is about the only thing to complain about, but that's more me not having much experience in open battlefields.