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So I'm considering playing one of these, as the versatility of the class is something I really like and I'm a big fan of the deity. The problem I've run into is deciding my domains. I kind of want to be able to damage creatures, as my current cleric doesn't really do that, but I'm not sure which combination would do that the most, though again, being able to do other things is a big draw. Suggestions as to which domain goes where?
If memory serves, Sarenrae gives both the Fire and Sun domains. I haven't played around with them personally, but Fire gives nice blast spells and Sun might work pretty well in an undead-heavy campaign. I believe there's also a short guide on blasty clerics on the Pathfinder Guide to the Guides page by BrokenZenith.
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I was looking at an Ecclesitheurge of Sarenrae with a single level of Unchained Monk a while ago - Dual Talent Human for high wisdom and strength. That way, you've got Wisdom AC armor despite being an Ecclesitheurge, and can use Flurry of Blows with a Temple Sword to good effect if needed. I was even considering Crane Style since it's easy with Unchained Monk. Something like:
Sword-Brother of the Solar Temple
"See the light, my son. Before you burn in it."
Ecclesitheurge of Sarenrae/ Unchained Monk 1
Dual Talent Human: 15/17+, 10, 14, 10, 16/18+, 8
Primary Domain: Fire.
Secondary Domain: Reformation Inquisition. (Domain Mastery: Glory|Heroism spells; Heroism at 3+).
(Unchained Monk)1. +Monk: Dodge / Crane Style
3. Weapon Focus: Temple Sword
5. Power Attack
7. Crane Wing
9. Crane Riposte
Throw fireballs and flurry a temple sword with Heroism and two-handed Power Attack. Use Crane Style and Wisdom AC to defend like a brick wall if needed. Use the Reformation Inquisition powers for naturally powerful social skills.
While I do intend to take a level of monk for the AC boosts, I was thinking of going full caster. Unless a melee ecclesitheurge is better...?
Well the thing is, it's pretty easy to do both pretty well with a setup like the one above (though Crane Style is maybe a bit much if the sword is very secondary). You don't have to go looking for hand-to-hand combat; you're just very ready to take down foes that think "hey, I should go kill that wimpy caster in a robe!". Of course, with a character who can dish out some very dangerous numbers - and some very dangerous style - with a sword, you might find mixing it up on purpose to be pretty tempting...
Oh its incredibly tempting, as I almost did that when originally working on the character. Still, I really like this setup-probably with spell feats vs Crane Style, though I like the look and sound of it a lot lol. Decisions decisions...
Reformation inquisition? That's not a cleric domain though
While I do intend to take a level of monk for the AC boosts, I was thinking of going full caster. Unless a melee ecclesitheurge is better...?
Melee ECC ?!?.... Yikes!
IMO the only way that can possibly work is with access to mirror image...... the ECC is far too squishy at low/mid levels to be mixing it up
Level 9 or 10 is where I'm coming in at. Got my AC up to 26 thus far.
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Reformation inquisition? That's not a cleric domain though
You can take an inquisition instead of a domain. Normally it's not worth it because you don't get access to domain spells, but with the ecclesitheurge's ability to swap out the domain spells from the secondary domain an inquisition works just fine.
While I do intend to take a level of monk for the AC boosts, I was thinking of going full caster. Unless a melee ecclesitheurge is better...?Melee ECC ?!?.... Yikes!
IMO the only way that can possibly work is with access to mirror image...... the ECC is far too squishy at low/mid levels to be mixing it up
Not with Wis to AC.
Dot
If the deity choice is flexible and you want to bring the thunder in a slightly different manner, I suppose you could worship Hei Feng.
Flurry with a nine-ring broadsword + Holy Ice Weapon is sure to break the ice.
Which is kind of how i was originally going to play the character. And while my AC will slowly get higher with both as I continue to add to both my amulet of natural armor (holy symbol) and my wisdom, it started to seem worth it, but the hit to my casting does kinda sting... this why I'm undecided. And while I was planning on fire as my primary, I hesitate due to many things being immune or resistant to fire.
If the deity choice is flexible and you want to bring the thunder in a slightly different manner, I suppose you could worship Hei Feng.
Flurry with a nine-ring broadsword + Holy Ice Weapon is sure to break the ice.
Domain recommendations?
Which is kind of how i was originally going to play the character. And while my AC will slowly get higher with both as I continue to add to both my amulet of natural armor (holy symbol) and my wisdom, it started to seem worth it, but the hit to my casting does kinda sting... this why I'm undecided. And while I was planning on fire as my primary, I hesitate due to many things being immune or resistant to fire.
Mistake..... the rules on Holy Symbol were left more open on the errata to allow for different slot options and to be closer to the wizard version. If you look through the deities there are various specific holy symbol/item/artefacts to provide the precedent.Go for a ring and then get Craft Wonderous as a feat. This effectively gives you 2 crafting options.
I would not take a dip in monk.... although I can see the rationale. And I wouldnt spend money on amulets of nat armour when you have Ironskin as a spell. You are just going to have to get used to being squishy and be imaginative with your spells.
Domain recommendations?If the deity choice is flexible and you want to bring the thunder in a slightly different manner, I suppose you could worship Hei Feng.
Flurry with a nine-ring broadsword + Holy Ice Weapon is sure to break the ice.
As a whole, I'm thinking that Chaos (Protean) is probably your best bet for a primary domain. Touch of Chaos & Aura of Chaos are terrifying debuffs. Maybe ask your GM nicely about the Chaos (Demon) subdomain, as Fury of the Abyss + Flurry is certain to lead to plenty of destruction.
As a secondary, you could still go with the Reformation inquisition, and pick up Weather, Air, or Water, depending on what you feel like you'll need. They all give you some very niche spells, but pulling out a Control Winds, Gaseous Form, Sleet Storm etc when needed makes me think that you'll have some versatility there too. You won't be as blast-y, but you get Call Lightning, and that lasts for a rather long while.
Plus, Crane Style makes perfect sense on this deity too, being the patron deity of all Tengu + having a raven as his sacred animal. Then again, BadBird is the champion of all Monk/Cleric combo's that I've seen, so I'd personally listen to whatever they have to say concerning the matter before you consider my advice, hah!
Hei Feng Ecclesitheurge/ Unchained Monk 1 opens up some pretty impressive possibilities - the biggest being Guided Hand flurry. Chaos Touch through a Conductive sword and the protean Aura of Chaos with a massive DC are also very melee-friendly.
High wisdom melee Cleric/Monk1 can also make perfect use of Aura of Doom and Instrument of Agony, can pick up Cornugon Stun and Mantis Style for brutally-high-DC Stunning Fist weapon attacks, and could use the Separatist Cleric archetype for access to things like Trickery|Deception's Mirror Image and Confusion, using higher domain slots, Pearls of Power, or Preferred Spell for better domain spells/day.
I do love some good divine-sword-fu.
The main problem I can see with that would be that the Ecclesitheurge loses proficiency with your deity's favored weapon, and the Monk doesn't have scimitars on their list.
It's beyond frustrating.
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Guided Hand Flurry is rather nifty though. Taken to the extreme, you could go
14 / 14 / 14 / 7 / 17+2 / 7 with a 20 point buy, 2h flurry with Wis starting at level 2 w/ retraining (what, 50 gp? bargain), and you'll arguably gain more skill points / level than a Dual Talent cleric despite your 7 int. Long live 2+ int SP / level.
So, Wis to AC, Attack Rolls, social skills, and multiple debuffs at your fingertips.
L1 (UnMonk): Dodge (B), Stunning Fist (B), Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Feat (Human), Feat (Normal)
L2: (Cleric) (Retrain the two "normal" level 1 feats to Channel Smite & Guided Hand
L3: Weapon Focus (Nine-Ring Broadsword)
L5: Power Attack
L7: Cornugon Stun
As mentioned, pick up a conductive weapon, and watch your opponent having to roll twice versus a Stunning Fist DC that's probably as high as it's going to ever get.
Pros: Just about as SAD as you get, just boost your Wisdom and you'll do fine. Higher AC, DCs, and eventually higher-to-hit than the strength-based cleric.
Cons: You are a crazy hermit.
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Alternatively
15+2 / 12 / 14 / 8 / 16+2 / 8
L1 (UnMonk): Weapon Focus (Nine-Ring Broadsword), Dodge (B), Stunning Fist (B), Improved Unarmed Strike (B)
L3: Power Attack
L5: ... Whatever you feel like!
Pros: Less feat intensive, deals more damage due to extra strength.
Cons: Ironically, fewer skills than the 7 Int cleric.
Maybe worth considering? :)
Well I dunno if I'd say I want a prominent melee roll, but I always end up there eventually, usually as a flanking buddy. But if I'm gonna flank, I want decent AC and a decent hit
Incidentally, you mentioned an interest in doing some blasting - check out the spell Admonishing Ray. It's from a more obscure source, but if you are allowed to use it it's essentially a non-lethal force damage Scorching Ray.
Heh, bit too obscure, but otherwise cool. We're actually using core,apg,ultimates magic equipment and combat, plus inner sea gods.
So actually unchained monk is out as well, but I can still use regular monk to similar effect
As I think about it, I might go archer ecclesitheurge. Hell of a lot of options there
I mean there is a feat investment, but with only a round of buffing, I'd be capable of 5d8+50 damage :D and that's just with a +1 Bow. Just need to pick which I'd be better off with, a +3 bow or a holy bow...
Ew, ecclesitheurge don't get bows, nvm. Works out though, as with a single buff I can theoretically get a 35 AC against a single attack at level 10 by going 1 level monk with crane style.
Going elf I lose the feat anyway. I originally wanted to make a caster or melee ecclesitheurge, and I think Temple flurry will be just what I need
Dammit all, I'd just settled on a concept! *sigh* back to the drawing board...
Well, if you're going to take the monk dip anyway, you can still rope dart flurry. Hell, you could dip Zen Archer and Bow Flurry, and keep the WIS to AC. Miss out on the improved unchained flurry, but still nice.
So the flurry itself doesn't have much use, given it doesn't work work Manyshot nor Rapid Shot, nor will it expand as I level due to needing more monk levels to keep flurry relevant.
But it does free up a pair of feats sndgives me a +5 to AC. But it delays me a level of spell casting. Can't decide if it's worth it
What it comes down to is what role(s) you're actually trying to take on, and how comfortable you are trying to fill those roles with exceptionally weak defenses.
Losing one Cleric level makes you equivalent to an Oracle for spell level - CL doesn't suffer at all with Magical Knack. It's hardly a grievous loss if there's something significant to be gained by it.
Really, if your big objective with Ecclesitheurge is just to pick up a blasting option, consider just tossing Preferred Spell onto a Fire Domain spell or two.
Well, after talking with the others, apparently what the group really needs is an off-tank. Which, while ecclesitheurge doesn't immediately spring to mind upon hearing those words, would be the temple sword build with Crane Style. Looks like I may be headed in that direction
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If you're still thinking about the Guided Hand variant (which should be pretty similar and be able to nab Crane Style) don't overlook Flame Blade.
The problem is that it's a 3rd level spell for clerics of Sarenrae. It's a heavy cost to spam it, and fire resist/immunity is very prevalent at the levels when you can have it every fight.
Based on my very minor experiences with this, the Holy Ice Weapon + Guided Hand + Flurry combo seems to be surprisingly good, and should also allow Crane Style. Getting a potential +10+1d4 damage done on every attack really hurts.
Either way, don't forget that you won't be able to get Crane Riposte until level 11 due to BAB requirements.
Really, if your big objective with Ecclesitheurge is just to pick up a blasting option, consider just tossing Preferred Spell onto a Fire Domain spell or two.
Agreed... preferred spell on fireball..... on the fire domain thats the one spell youll most likely need it for. Pearls of Power can mop up the rest.
The guided hand variant is far more feat intensive, as I need to take weapon focus and channel smite as prerequisites for guiding hand and crusaders flurry. There's no room for crane style. Flame blade is a spell I often slot when not dealing with things immune to fire.
Holy ice weapon does sound interesting, though not sure how well it fits with my deity lol. The more I look at it, the more I like it, but I feel is a good backup plan, not something to focus on
Yeah, that is where Hei Feng (and Dhalavei, if you can deal with worshipping a Lawful Evil god) are sort of unique, since their favored weapon is a monk weapon (Nine-Ring Broadsword & Temple Sword, respectively), so you can flurry with it straight off the bat.
(on a side note, if you've got money to spare, you could look into getting a Wayfinder and a White Pyramid Ioun Stone, it gives proficiency with a certain weapon & Weapon Focus as a resonant power)
Either way, if you go Human you could have Crane Style at level 3 (Guided Hand + Channel Smite @ L1-2), get Power Attack at L5, and then Crane Wing at level 7. I don't think you can get Crane Wing earlier than level 7 as a cleric anyway.. so the progression should be ok. Full attack with two hands on your sword, then by the end let go of one hand as a free action to be ready to utilize Crane Wing off-turn.
All things considered, if you go Guided Hand, I'd emphasise on the fact that you are still a flexible full caster on oracle progression. Your melee, as stated earlier in the thread, is a (very potent) role you can choose to fill, but you've got plenty of other options.
Wouldn't work. Monks mus be lawful. Hei Feng is Chaotic Neutral. Clerics must have an alignment within one step of their deity.
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Wouldn't work. Monks mus be lawful. Hei Feng is Chaotic Neutral. Clerics must have an alignment within one step of their deity.
There are plenty of ways around that. Start as a lawful Monk a level one, go through a crisis of faith, become TN, CN, ot CG and worship Hei Feng. You can't advance monk but keep all monk abilities. Or be a Martial Artist monk with no alignment restriction. Or be adopted by aasimars and take the Enlightened Warrior trait, and be a TN monk.
Monks must be lawful when taking levels in the class, but they are not required to remain lawful to retain their monk powers.
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
There's also the option of taking the Enlightened Warrior trait! :)
The Monk/Cleric I've gotten to play briefly sort of emphasises the former - he was raised as a soldier, deported as part of a battalion intended to stabilize the ongoing Minkaian warmongering, got shipwrecked, washed up by himself on a tiny island, and after a long period of loneliness got a mild chuckle out of the god of storms himself - Hei Feng.
Cue the now grizzled and slighty-crazy hermit wrecking havoc upon Varisia.
EDIT: Damn those ninjas. I knew I should've gotten Skill Focus: Rapid Posting last level, rather than Improved Procrastination.
Martial Artist Monk has no alignment restrictions, though Unchained Monk is better for a one level dip since you don't take an attack or strength penalty for Flurry.
Guided Hand + Crusader's Flurry is very effective, but the issues with feats are a major nuisance. By comparison, using Dual Talent Human to split a high STR/WIS is actually pretty simple. There's more pressure to get both a headband and belt, but even with Guided Hand damage would still be tied to strength.
For overall offense, such a Cleric Monk will be looking at pretty good numbers if you judge it against a generic baseline Barbarian. At level 9, it would look something like:
Cleric/Monk AB: BAB7 +6STR +2Weapon +4Favor/Favored -2Power = 17 (+2Heroism?)
Barbarian AB: BAB9 +9STR +2Weapon -3Power = 17
Cleric/Monk Damage: 4.5+2 +9STR +4Favor/Favored +6Power = 25.5 (flurry)
Barbarian Damage: 7+2 +13STR +9Power = 31
Even with classic Monk the numbers are still quite solid.
Im so in love with this build its ridiculous. Originally I was going to go down the road of Crane style, but my concern is that I am focusing too much on combat, and not enough on being able to heal and cast spells in combat. Any suggestions as to feats to use possibly in place of Crane Style? (plus not entirely sure I need it, AC is 28 as of now, without the feat chain)
Part of me wonders if I should replace them with quick channel and extra channel, but at 4d6 at level 10 I dunno if it's worth it
I was thinking maybe heroism and reformation (restoration?) With fire spells in my domain slots. Trying to get my feats right
Metamagic is always fun - things like Empowered Fireball or Dazing Fireball are both thematic and powerful, and Persistent Bestow Curse or Instrument of Agony are very difficult to resist.
The Fate's Favored and Magical Knack traits already use up both typical trait slots, but with a Drawback or Additional Traits you could also pick up Wayang Spellhunter: Fireball (maybe re-flavored for your backstory). Replacing Crane, you could go:
1 - Additional Traits: Reactionary & "Permutations of Flame" (Wayang Spellhunter: Fireball)
7 - Empower Spell?
9 - Dazing Spell?
Also, you can use Heightened Spell -> Preferred Spell to take a single spell that you can access and allow it to be spontaneously cast. So without ever actually selecting the Fire domain in any way, you could take Preferred Spell: Fireball as a feat and be able to instantly convert any spell slot of level 3 or higher into a Fireball of that level (or into some other metamagic version).
Yoy cant- the feat allow to get fire ball spontaneous if it is on your spell list, without evet choosing it it isnt...
An Ecclesitheurge of a deity with the Fire Domain "has the ability" to cast Fireball, even if they never actually pick Fire.