Can I dimension door a troll's fire resistance armor off of him? If not, is there any teleport spell that can do so?
And as a follow up: how does the "holding a charge" aspect of the teleport school work? Dimension door for example says, "Target: you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures." Does that mean I can hold the charge like other touch spells? Or does the "you and" clause mean it has to go off immediately upon casting? And if I can hold the charge, am I considered armed while doing so?
1. Nope. All you can do is dispel it to suppress it for a few rounds.
2. No, once you cast the spell and use it once, the spell is gone.
Dimension Door is an immediate use spell.
Seems like a fair assessment. However, my confusion comes in due to the atypical target descriptor: "you and touched objects." As far as I can tell, there aren't any rules governing the "you" target specifically. There's just a line in the targeting section saying, "Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself." There are, however, specific rules for Touch Spells and Holding the Charge, but they don't give us any clue as to their interaction with a target of "you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures."
That makes this a sort-of-is, sort-of-isn't touch spell, which is causing my hangup. The only way out of this confusion (as far as I can see) is the "willing" portion. If an attended object can be considered "unwilling," then the offensive part of the question is moot. It's just the "what is a touch spell?" bit that still matters.
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Teleport Object (sor/wiz 7) specifically allows you to teleport items, which receive a will save to negate. It also allows you to hold the charge as per a touch range spell with a target.
Teleport could certainly work. You can target objects and it even has the line "Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance". If the object fails the save, using the trolls save because it is an attended object, the the armor is teleported. It also has a range of touch so can be held. You will go with the armor but could always teleport back.
Cast a spell of
And by that I mean have someone sunder the armor off of him.
Dimension Door will definitely not get the job done though.
Teleport has (object) listed under saving throw.
(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level.
I see no reason, given the (object) why it would not work.
Dimension Door also has the (object) descriptor with Will Negates. Just remember that you DD as well and may need to use another to get back.
Teleport has (object) listed under saving throw.
Dimension door has exactly the same target line as teleport, and I allowed it to work for the same reasons you're describing.
In the game in question, there was a duel with the troll Priest King of this monstrous army. One of the players, who had been wearing a cloak of human guise the whole campaign, dramatically threw it off to reveal himself as a half-orc, meaning he could challenge for leadership.
Yadda yadda it was a duel, so the other players could only help surreptitiously. One of the players, a tiefling witch, decided to try a bluff. He steps through this big bonfire, casts dimension door on the armor, and declares, "The demon lords see fit to take back their gifts."
It was a great play, so I allowed it by rule-of-cool, not to mention the same reasoning you reference. I can't find rules against it, but I'm still hung up on the "willing" portion and the "hold a charge vs. target: you" portion.
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You know what? I think I'm decided on both issues by a few lines from the teleport spell.
1. "All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you."
That explains what is meant by "touch" in this case. It's not actually a "touch spell" per se. There's no charge, and to pull this off you'd have to be touching your enemy as you cast. (That raises its own questions about how you can touch attack an enemy BEFORE casting a sort-of-is, sort-of-isn't touch spell.)
2. "Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and Spell Resistance."
Thanks to MichaelCullen for pointing that out. That line would not be in the spell if this trick weren't possible. It also offers insight into how the much-less-wordy Dimension Door ought to act.
Dimension Door will teleport objects that are not currently in someone's control, or objects from a creature that is willingly going to Dimension Door with you. But it will not work to teleport a creature's armor off them.
Dimension Door will teleport objects that are not currently in someone's control, or objects from a creature that is willingly going to Dimension Door with you. But it will not work to teleport a creature's armor off them.
Based upon the rules presented, I respectfully disagree. If you can find rules that reference attended objects as "unwilling" I'll change my opinion though. I looked for them, but failed in the search.
The difference between Teleport and Dimension Door and other "touch" spells is in the target line where it says "You and touched objects or other willing creatures." Spells like Vampiric Touch and Chill Touch say "Living creature touched" or "creature or creatures touched" or something to that effect. Note how they leave off the word "you".
It is a spell with multiple targets and the caster does not have the choice to not include himself as "You" is listed as a target with a conjunction, and, connecting it to the potential to take others. As such the spell never fails to have a target like Vampiric Touch or Chill Touch may if you fail to actually hit another creature. In the latter case the charge is held per the rules:
"Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell."
So Teleport and Dimension Door ALWAYS have at least one target, "You", and they are touch spells that allow you to touch multiple targets so by both criteria they canNOT be held per the rules.
Can you affect an object with both of them, sure! If it is magic or attended then it will get a save. As mentioned the caster will also have to travel with the item if it fails the save.
I hope that helps clear things up a bit.
Dimension Door will teleport objects that are not currently in someone's control, or objects from a creature that is willingly going to Dimension Door with you. But it will not work to teleport a creature's armor off them.
Unfortunately, it looks like it will affect an attended object.
"(object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects. A magic item's saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level."
Both Dimension Door and Teleport have (object) as listed above in the Save and Spell Resistance line so they can affect objects, even magic or attended.
Well then, if nothing else Dimension Door wont work with action economy.
The spell doesn't grant a free touch attack, so you would need to spend a standard action to touch the creature, and a standard action to cast the spell. And nothing about a touch attack implies that it's continuous constant contact. Rather, its like a poke or quick touch. I don't think there's anyway your going to be touching an unwilling creature (or their gear) at the same time you finish casting the spell, and since we've already established you can't hold Dimension Door it just doesn't seem feasible that this will work.
Teleport Object will work though, and I never said that it wouldn't. In case that was at all unclear. Simply that Dimension Door isn't the spell for this job.
I hope that helps clear things up a bit.
I think we're on the same wavelength. Thanks for taking the time.
I think I figured out the "offensive touching" issue as well.
"Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action."
Teleport is weird in that you've got to be touching your targets as you cast the spell, not afterwards. ("All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.") As a solution, I'd reverse the usual order and allow a caster to make that free touch attack to tag the attended object, and then cast the spell (probably defensively). I imagine that, if the caster missed her touch attack, she could either abort the spell and declare that the "free" touch was actually a botched standard action, or choose to go through with the spell and teleport just herself away from the enemy. If you wanted to be more restrictive, you could declare that due to the split-second timing of this maneuver the caster has no choice but to complete the spell.
Well then, if nothing else Dimension Door wont work with action economy.
I respect this reading, but I still feel as if teleport/dimension door want this maneuver to be possible due to this line from teleport: "Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and Spell Resistance." That's the basis for my RAI interpretation. The question for me is then how to resolve that since, as your rightly point out, the rules for this situation are bizarre.
If the caster has to grapple and then cast quickened dimension door, we can at least agree that ought to be possible, right? It seems a bit silly, but the hapless grapple wizard has done the impossible. Bully for him. However, I can't imagine any in-game reason to disallow the following sequence:
1. Make your touch attack before casting the spell.
2. Cast your spell (probably defensively)
3. Hope the enemy fails their save.
Rules aside (since they don't seem to cover the weirdness that the RAI implies to be possible), I can't imagine why the "free touch attack" would have to follow the spell. In cinematic terms, I can imagine a caster laying a hand on an enemy's armor before casting a spell just as easily as I can imagine the reverse. Moreover, the three steps above provide three points of failure for a single target spell. If a caster can pull that off, I say more power to them.
I've been talking this over with the player in question via chat, and we were amused to discover the ACTUAL reason the play was illegal. Troll-sized plate armor weighs 100 lbs. He shouldn't have been able to teleport the armor since it weighed more than his scrawny dude's max load.
The problem is your basic premise.
Dimension Door is NOT a touch attack spell. It is a Personal spell that can have on your option affect other creatures IN ADDITION, attached to you as baggage.
Agreed. It's not a *normal* touch attack spell. However, I think it's clear that it can be used offensively. For example, the "grapple and then cast quickened dimension door" tactic ought to work, right?
My logic is this: You can use this spell in an offensive manner. It requires you to touch the object you wish to transport. Why not adapt the free touch attack from normal touch-range spells to this irregular situation?
Let's examine this. You are grappling a creature. Assuming you succeed you then gain the grappled condition yourself, meaning that in order to cast the spell, you have to make a concentration check vs your target's CMD. Assuming you succeed in that, the target, not being willing gets to make a Will save vs your spell's effective DC to resist being carried along. If he succeeds, he's not going with you, and you won't know that until you let the spell go off.
You are not casting a touch attack spell on your target, you are using your personal spell and trying to make your grapplee unwilling cargo.
Not quite. You can't teleport an unwilling target. You are trying to teleport his attended items...which you are presumably touching while grappling. Otherwise yes, I think that covers the situation.
Here's another example more likely to happen in real play: suppose your barbarian buddy is grappling the baddie. You walk up to the grapple and lay a hand on the item to be teleported. In this scenario, the only roll would be the save vs. unwilling, right? Or would you require a touch attack? Or would you require a generic CMB roll to "continue maintaining contact with the item" as a standard action before allowing the wizard to cast dimension door on his following turn? All of the above seem like valid options, but the simplest to me seems like adapting the "free touch attack" from the touch ranged spell rules.
Except Teleport is. That's what the "object" in the saving throw and spell resistance section is specifically for. As has been quoted several times already, attended items get their owner's Will save to negate. You will teleport away and can potentially take someone's worn or carried item with you against their will.
If the spell couldn't do it, the saving throw and SR entries would have been written quite differently.
I respect this reading, but I still feel as if teleport/dimension door want this maneuver to be possible due to this line from teleport: "Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and Spell Resistance." That's the basis for my RAI interpretation. The question for me is then how to resolve that since, as your rightly point out, the rules for this situation are bizarre.
I agree with your position but have one criticism. Your argument is from RAW not RAI, please don't perpetuate the common misunderstanding that implications are somehow RAI and not RAW. If the text logically implies a conclusion that is just as much RAW as if it were explicitly stated.
Generally a free action occurs "while" you are doing another action.
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
I concede the point that the charge can probably not be held, though can see a strong argument for it.
Here is how I see the maneuver working one of two ways:
Option 1
1 cast teleport
2 attempt "free" touch attack
3 object makes saving throw
4 arrive at destination
Free actions take almost no time and can be done as part of taking other actions (in this case casting) normally.
To avoid provoking you could even start 5 feet away and take a 5 foot step as another free action.
Thematically the caster would be starting to teleport away as they reach out and touch the object last second. If the touch fails then too bad, they have already teleported.
Option 2
The other way is making your touch attack as you cast BUT before completion of the spell. In this case you could decide to fail your casting if the touch attack failed. Or at the very least teleport to your exact location. All effects and variables are determined at the completion of casting.
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.