Many people have said that it is alright to kill evil stuff, but a terrible thing to kill good people. However, I have been thinking about it and the opposite seems to be the case. If you kill a good person all you are doing to forcefully deporting them to a super happy fun awesome place. Well as when you kill an evil person you are sending him to a super evil awful torture chamber of infinite misery.
Also when you send people to the evil afterlife planes you are directly strengthening the Forces of Evil. Those souls will be used to create evil outsiders or magic weapons to arm them.
Well alot of the evil people are trying to live forever. I mean why else would a litch go to such lengths?
Others think they will get a better deal in hell if they make inside connections beforehand.
Also many people just arn't forward thinkers. Also we have people in real life that think that the world is flat or that evolution is a hoax. People can be real stupid.
Mainly because good people care about their family/friends and how their loss would affect them.
In the overall scheme of things, it's actually simple.
Good people pay for the now and get rewarded in the afterlife.
Evil people get rewarded now and pay for it in the afterlife.
And smart people do evil stuff gain alot of power and money use that money to buy a scroll of Atonement and use that a few minutes before death.
(example: Darth Vader)
Also have friends that will bring them back to life if they die unexpectedly.
Moral power-gamers.
I don't really think that's how it works. You can't really plan "I'll do all this evil stuff them use a scroll of atonement so I'm good." If you do that, any decent GM will rule that you're still evil. That said, I do agree with "if you kill an evil person, isn't that more of an evil act than good?"
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And smart people do evil stuff gain alot of power and money use that money to buy a scroll of Atonement and use that a few minutes before death.
(example: Darth Vader)
Also have friends that will bring them back to life if they die unexpectedly.
Moral power-gamers.
Atonement doesn't work if you aren't "truly repentant and desirous of setting right [your] misdeeds." So, no, you can't use it to game the system.
Good people make the world better thus they should be in it longer. Even evil people benefit from good people not directly opposed to themselves.
Evil tends to corrupt while good can only redeem the willing. Therefore it helps spread good to remove unrepentant evil from the world/general-population.
Is your soul really you?
I know that sounds like a lousy question, but your petitioner form doesn't remember anything about life. If you somehow got resurrected after your judgement, you wouldn't remember it. With no continuity of experience, there's really not much more investment in your soul over somebody else's. (The exception here being anything that will fast-track you past the forgetting part. Deals with a devil, getting captured/eaten by a daemon, and so on.)
People frequently don't save enough for their older self, and they don't usually stretch regularly or exercise so that their older self won't experience as much joint pain and limited mobility. If they don't care for their older self, why should they care for the soul that happens to have been theirs at one point?
Similarly, enthusiasm over any not-quite eternal reward is kind of mitigated if "you" never get to experience it.
Lots of religions claim to put mechanics on things. They just fail at it.
Also I did not know about the losing your memory thing. That sucks I would not consider it to still be myself if I lose all my memories. There is only one thing for it. have to figure out how to make everyone immortal. Whatever the inevitables might say.
When it comes to pantheonic/oppositionistic D&D-type 'defined afterlifes', no matter what you are, when you die you're strengthening [i]your[i] particular extraplanar side. Bad souls torn apart to eke out every last drop of your sin's strength, good souls nurtured until they blossom into powerful entities. The benefits here for each 'side' are that the one side gets their entities sooner (by shredding and combining multiple souls), while the other side gets a coherent entity whose singular nature provides for a stronger force. (And yeah, getting your soul shredded would, I would presume, be a horrific experience - and considering the 'evil wants to live forever' viewpoint, would be the worst thing ever - not only to not live forever, but to be shredded into fragments once you're dead.)
Understand that morality is defined by how your actions are or would be seen on the mortal plane, and its impact there. Helping a good person live is good because they then are able to continue to do good - increasing the positive energy between people. Killing a bad person is good because it removes the increase in negative energies, however those take form (corruption of the innocent, killing of good people, instigating destructive wars, etc.). If you (for some reason) think that slaying someone evil is a bad thing, and that you're strengthening the forces of evil, then yeah, maybe you're somewhat right ... and you should trap the souls of the people you slay.
Me, I prefer a singular, non-oppositionistic reward/penalty afterlife in my fantasy-style play; sure there are entities good and bad, but bad people are tormented, purified, or destroyed when they die, good people are rewarded and/or nurtured into beings of spiritual grace.
I personally don't imagine I would like having my soul shredded or tortured, so I think I'll stay on the good side, even if that soul doesn't have any memories.
Also, even if you lost all your memories, you'd still be you. Your experiences/memories don't shape everything about you. If they did, then, if you really think about it, then that would mean everything is predetermined. That's just silly, because then there would be no morality at all.
If they did, then, if you really think about it, then that would mean everything is predetermined.
It is canon that Pharasma knows where every soul will go in the afterlife and that it is all predetermined.
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You are definitely still you even if you don't have your memories. You did lots of things before the age of 3 or 4 or whenever your first real memory exists. That doesn't mean that you were you before that, you just changed and developed more. Well passing on could be the same thing. It's still you but that time when you were alive exists in a part of your being that you just don't remember. You know stuff happened but not exactly what.Lots of religions claim to put mechanics on things. They just fail at it.
Also I did not know about the losing your memory thing. That sucks I would not consider it to still be myself if I lose all my memories. There is only one thing for it. have to figure out how to make everyone immortal. Whatever the inevitables might say.
Yeah, but I'm functionally not the same person I was at age 3 or 4.
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Neither would you functionally be the same person after death. Not a dissimilar transition.Yeah, but I'm functionally not the same person I was at age 3 or 4.You are definitely still you even if you don't have your memories. You did lots of things before the age of 3 or 4 or whenever your first real memory exists. That doesn't mean that you were you before that, you just changed and developed more. Well passing on could be the same thing. It's still you but that time when you were alive exists in a part of your being that you just don't remember. You know stuff happened but not exactly what.Lots of religions claim to put mechanics on things. They just fail at it.
Also I did not know about the losing your memory thing. That sucks I would not consider it to still be myself if I lose all my memories. There is only one thing for it. have to figure out how to make everyone immortal. Whatever the inevitables might say.
In which case I wouldn't be me, I would be someone else. So...yeah.
Good people pay for the now and get rewarded in the afterlife.
Evil people get rewarded now and pay for it in the afterlife.
Abraxas and Furcas would beg to differ. So would the various Good gods/celestial lords of joy and sensual fulfillment. Self-sacrifice of some degree or another is frequent tool to reach good, but it in and of itself is not necessarily good. An evil cultist may sacrifice her life, wealth, etc. for her evil cause; this does not make it Good.
I think you are taking things to literally and viewing time as strictly linear. What could be happening is every good act you do adds to the upper planes, likewise every evil act adds to the lower planes. So when you murder someone you create a small section of hell or whatever the appropriate plane is. When you die your soul is drawn to the highest concentration of your creation. So if you are chaotic evil it would be drawn to the abyss. The abyss does not actually gain any power from your death the power is already there. Your soul can influence the nature of what manifests but something will manifest. So let’s say you are the type would become an incubus and for some reason you don’t end up going to the abyss. Now instead of you becoming a incubus someone else becomes a different demon maybe a more powerful one because there was enough energy to form a tougher demon.
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At no point in reading Pathfinder's campaign setting have I come close to entertaining the idea that it isn't anything but an existential horror in which all the characters are trapped. It's just that most of the characters don't realize, or willfully deny their situation.
Unless a character concept demands a nihilistic viewpoint, I just switch off the nagging sense of unease every person stuck in Golarion should feel, just like how characters in Warhammer 40K are all comically missing the forest in the trees.
Universal hell-holes have their place. It lets one guiltlessly play any role within it.
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Actually, for a truly evil person, the Lower Planes are not a punishment. Think about it this way:
Mr. Big Bad Evil Guy who is CE dies. His soul gets rent into many tiny pieces, each one carefully categorized by its particular sin, and then combined with lots of other bits of souls that specialize in the same type of sin, for the express purpose that the conglomerate being can go sin.
Does Mr. BBEG like breaking things? Well, part of him can become a vrock demon, so he can! Does he like hunting? Well, part of him can become a shemhazian demon so he can! Does he like...The point is, a truly evil person does not suffer in the Lower Planes. They get everything they ever wanted: their view of a perfect world.
Generally- the entry level positions for the lower planes SUCK. LE have lemurs, which are the squishy building blocks of hell via millenia of slavery; larvae are just squiggling worms that eat trash and MANY CREATURES FIND THEM TASTY; I forget whether NE has a particular form, but lets just call it 'rabbit' and abbadon 'the lions den', since they have industrial scale soul harvesting.
Overall, it takes millenia to become anything mildly important or capable. And you are probably going to get torn apart. You have...what? Atmost 100 years being a jerk, and you spend 10,000 years as garbage. It isn't a good deal.
The idea that the left overs will each go on and get to do their own things is not even a cold comfort. It is only comforting for necromancers, who enjoy the thought that their hand will go out and live a fulfilling unlife.
So if you want to be evil and be rewarded for it, be REALLLY EVIL. Don't half do the job. Make sure that the people down stairs like your initiative. Go rip some god hearts out for good measure.
Also when you send people to the evil afterlife planes you are directly strengthening the Forces of Evil. Those souls will be used to create evil outsiders or magic weapons to arm them.
I think someone has more potential to redeem/corrupt someone while they're alive than they do when they're dead.
People influence those around them.
While you're alive, you're influencing people of all alignments, and as such, you're much more likely to cause a meaningful change (N to G, or N to E. Even G to E, or E to G).
Once they enter the afterlife, they're almost entirely surrounded by souls who are the same alignment as themselves, and their ability to influence the balance is greatly reduced.
Essentially, killing an evil creature is a short term boost to the evil gods, but a long term loss.
And killing an good creature is a short term boost and a long term loss to the good gods.
Example: A level 20 Paladin has likely saved thousands of good souls, and redeemed dozens at least. Each of those souls (people) will have affected others, and the effects ripple out throughout the world...
Now imagine if that Paladin had died at level 1...
All those people (s)he would have influenced are now 1 step closer to the "evil" side of the alignment chart.
On top of that, all those Evil creatures (s)he killed are now alive, and they're influencing those around them.
Edit: Redundant sentence removed =P
So? Why can't Golarion just be a big clockwork machine where souls are created, put through their predetermined paces, and filed into their predetermined slots? I don't see how that's "silly." It is a plausible possibility.
I know this guy named Ihys. He gave us this awesome thing called free will. It lets us, well, not be "a big clockwork machine". Yay!
It is canon that Pharasma knows where every soul will go in the afterlife and that it is all predetermined.
Pharasma may know where everyone's soul will go, because, well, she's a goddess. That doesn't mean that it's all predetermined.
Pharasma may know where everyone's soul will go, because, well, she's a goddess. That doesn't mean that it's all predetermined.
She knows where everyone's soul will go, before the person is born. So it must be predetermined.
Does that matter any more?
If I am not remembering this wrong, from the beginning of this setting in print, we have been in the age of lost omens. Predetermination is dead. Gods can spit ball answers better than anyone else, but no one "knows" what is going to happen anymore.
Does that matter any more?
If I am not remembering this wrong, from the beginning of this setting in print, we have been in the age of lost omens. Predetermination is dead. Gods can spit ball answers better than anyone else, but no one "knows" what is going to happen anymore.
Thats something I never understood, if prophecy is dead in golarion how come Pharasma still knows the destiny of souls.
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Wow. Y'all don't know how omniscience dovetails with agency (free will)? The god with omniscience knows all the possibilities, their likelihoods, etc. You can select something that goes against your natural grain and instruction, and that can change things like a grain of sand starting a landslide, but the overall likehoods are otherwise.
As well, if this is a quantum destiny tree (which accounts for free will and fickle chance), as past potentiality branches are eliminated they vanish from past and future as if they'd never existed in the first place. If it's a quantum-tachyonic destiny tree, they fade as the choices are made, with the amount of fading (per se) representing the effort needed to alter the flow of history (and the strength of conviction of that decision) to that tree. (That sort of destiny tree is necessary only if you have time travel.)
The quantum destiny tree in particular makes it so that the 'God of Fate' or Destiny or whatever always knows what's going to happen - because for them and their omniscience, that's the way it's always been.
What he said.
Don't worry, though. It kind of confused me too. :)
So? Why can't Golarion just be a big clockwork machine where souls are created, put through their predetermined paces, and filed into their predetermined slots? I don't see how that's "silly." It is a plausible possibility.
This is exactly how I've shaped my own custom cosmology of Golarion. The whole alignment system is merely used as a sorting system to harvest soul energy to fuel the master plans of the universes 'creator'. Good and Evil are reactionary substances that the 'creator' uses to further his needs, while Law is the method he uses to 'ignite' the process (catalyst). Chaos is the unprocessed and unrefined essence of the universe and it is actually bent on resisting the whole process.
Much is invested in the Good alignment as it is a pure source of energy but will begin to stagnate without being 'stirred'. Evil is a highly volatile and destructive energy, corrosive to everything but serves to keep the Good 'reactive'.
I've made the source of all soul energy in the universe the Positive Energy plane. The energy is born there, tainted by the universe, and whatever leftover residue is dumped into the Negative Energy plane. The two planes are linked together similar to the idea of a black hole is linked to a white hole, and anything that is dumped is eventually reborn to be reprocessed until everything is purified.
Gods, religions and other beings are merely just pawns or unwitting actors in a system that they do not fully comprehend, though some are well aware of the system (like Pharasma). No one actually knows the true plans of the 'creator'.
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Also when you send people to the evil afterlife planes you are directly strengthening the Forces of Evil. Those souls will be used to create evil outsiders or magic weapons to arm them.
The question is, how much are the gods / outer planes actually benefitting from these souls? Goblins die in vast quantities, so Lamashtu, their primary god, as well as primary god worshipped by gnolls and minotaurs, should be swimming in vast quantities of this 'soul power,' compared to, say, Calistria, whose elven followers are much scarcer, and live much longer, or Apsu, whose good dragon followers are even rarer.
This doesn't seem to be the case, and if it were, many evil cultures would breed and kill their own specifically for this purpose (and there'd likely be sections of the Hells where captive humans are bred like some mash-up of Hellraiser and the Matrix for that very purpose, merely to harvest their souls).
The ugly specter of 'some souls are worth more than others' rears it's head here, as an argument could be made that an elf or dwarf (or dragon's!) soul is worth more than that of an orc or goblin or human, but the game lore suggests that almost all souls totally forget their lives and lose all class levels/etc. in becoming petitioners anyway, so it seems more likely that the soul of a mythic archmage who lived for centuries would be worth exactly as much as the soul of a infant that died during childbirth.
Petitioners lacking memories or class levels suggests that time spent in the material plane is utterly irrelevant, which makes life itself kind of meaningless, since it's just a pit stop on the way to becoming a mind-wiped identical petitioner, sort of a 'good zombie' or whatever, faceless and without distinction, existing only to be a battery for the outsider forces of good (or law, or chaos, or evil).
The setup sounds kind of like the (reputed) Spanish Inquisition practice of torturing Jews or Moslems until they repented and accepted Jesus as their Savior, and then killing them so that their souls would go to Heaven (and that they didn't have a chance to backslide into their 'heathen' ways). If souls are worth something to the creatures of the upper/outer/lower planes, and mortal lives are kind of meaningless to the end result, then it's logical, if cold, to murder good people as soon as possible, because the longer they live, the more chances they have to become corrupted / fall from good and end up useless to the Big Good Battery in the Sky.
Killing evil creatures, similarly, becomes an act of willfully empowering the forces of evil, when you could instead take the harder tack of redeeming them first (denying that soul to Team Evil) *and then killing them* (sending their shiny new good-aligned soul to Team Good).
Eh. Welcome to alignment. :)
Realistically, the material plane exists to generate morality; you may be good or evil, but you get that way through your actions in life, and you can ONLY get that way through your actions in life. Nothing and nobody is inherently good/evil; we are all born true neutral. But your upbringing will certainly encourage some style of morality; traditional 'evil-bad' races will raise their children in dire competition with each other, or teach each other to lie, cheat, steal, etc. Traditional 'sweetness and light' races will foster cooperation, generosity, etc. among their youngfolk. So killing goblin babies isn't going to get 'more evil' onto those planes directly; it will (killing babies being bad) get more evil into YOU.
This is also the point where you need to determine/decide whether or not things are born in the outer planes, and the answer really has to be 'not actually'. Without prime-material input, the level of energy in each outer plane has to be a constant, no matter the wars they inflict on each other (or themselves). If you slaughter a high-level power, then a little while later, a bunch of low-level powers may be 'born' from the energy. Living prime-material individuals can't give actual birth, or perhaps even truly exist there; everything is spiritual. Aasimar and tiefling, all that sort of thing, exist in potentiality, not in actuality, and are only born when they come to the Prime.
To do good, to do evil, becomes a matter of acts, not a matter of what race you're born into; killing evil things early (that horde of orcs charging over the hill) and good things late (the elderly saint) becomes a win for the good guys, while doing it the other way becomes a win for the bad.