As the title suggests, I'm looking for some build advice on an UnMonk I plan to play in an upcoming home game. Overall, I really would like to give it a shot despite my misgivings (And my GM wanting players to only choose the Unchained variants).
The issue lies with my misgivings. Particularly the weaker saves. The PB will likely be 25, and I was thinking of going with a Dwarf to scoff at most saves anyways (+3 to most dangerous things with hardy and a trait, +5 with the Steel Soul feat). My dilemma mainly comes with feat selection.
I figure an unarmed focus would end up being best considering I wanna take Flying Kick asap (Too cool and functional), so Dragon style seems most appropriate, but that's a few feats for the added mobility and equal damage to weapons (We read Dragon Stlye and Ferocity as giving you the good power attack damage) that I could be saving with just using a weapon, though the kick would end up sucking. I like the added mobility of Dragon Style with ignoring a lot of things with more important movement options, but if I took the two Dragon Style feats, what about my only level 1 feat? When do I take Steel Soul? Weapon focus likely isn't worth it, though I wouldn't mind dedicating myself to unarmed (Otherwise I'd just use the Rope Dart for more Flurrys anyways, meaning Weapon Focus and Power attack wouldn't make a difference there). Maybe save Steel Soul/Weapon Focus and just take Power Attack (A feat I honestly am not super in love with to be quite honest. I have always preferred a better to-hit than damage. I enjoy the feel of accuracy, especially when I am not swimming in class-related bonuses).
I'm not dead set on Dwarf, but better defenses is kind of why I like the monk, and one feat for more damage on average doesn't seem worth the loss of a potential +5 to things that just kill you or hurt a looooot.
Don't know what everyone else is planning. We plan on discussing and making characters for a few hours before play even to make the campaign and party more... cohesive, but I figure a mobile striker with good save and middling AC would be welcome.
With a 25 Point Buy as a Dwarf you can easily support 18 Wisdom. Not only does that fix saves and increase your AC and Ki-Pool it also makes stunning fist worthwhile.
If you use the unarmed attack from Flying Kick just make it a stunning attempt while your at it so flying kick now sucks less. You can also make that extra attack that you spent a ki point and a swift action on your flying kick stunning attack and then swing that Sansetsukon like there's no tomorow.
Overall the U Monk seeems very well balanced the only thing that is sort of busted is two handed Sansetsukon Flurry.
Also if you choose to focus on one weapon then weapon focus is very much worth your time as bonuses to hit are very hard to come by for monks.
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The issue lies with my misgivings. Particularly the weaker saves. The PB will likely be 25, and I was thinking of going with a Dwarf to scoff at most saves anyways (+3 to most dangerous things with hardy and a trait, +5 with the Steel Soul feat).
Half Elf with the Dual Minded alternate racial trait isn't bad either, since it also protects from Supernatural abilities (Dominate from a Vampire) that Hardy / Steel Soul doesn't. Pick up Iron Will as one of your feats, and you'll be solid for quite a while.
At level 5 (with 18 Wisdom), that gives you a +10 Will saving throw (+14 vs Enchantments). That's more than solid.
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for an unarmed monk, one combo I like even more than Flying Kick is Leg Sweep + Vicious Stomp. As you are making your Flurry, you get a free trip that does not provoke at the same attack bonus as your attack. If successful, you then get a free AoO, and can continue your flurry against a now prone opponent.
It has the same weaknesses as all trip combos, but it's very strong against humaniods, and it has minimal feat investment.
OP: You are on the right track.
Dwarf is a strong choice, I personally prefer Half-Elf or Human because of the FCB to gain extra Ki, which is very necessary.
Also, I ran some calculations, and I found that Weapon Focus is not bad at all for Monks, but I'd need to check again.
If you go Human, I recommend Dual Talent for +2 STR/WIS, and if you go Half-Elf, Dual Minded is great to stack with Iron Will.
If you go Human, Spiritual Balance for a feat can make you nigh-immune to the most dangerous mind-affecting effects of all.
If you go Human, Spiritual Balance for a feat can make you nigh-immune to the most dangerous mind-affecting effects of all.
If we're thinking of the same Spiritual Balance, I'd agree that it's great to extend Still Mind to possession effects, but I'm not sure that doubling your Still Mind bonus (from +2 to +4 against Enchantment and Possession effects) by spending a ki point counts as being "nigh immune."
Am I missing something?
An Oread makes an even better monk than a dwarf. You get a bonus to both STR and WIS. Take Granite Skin and Crystalline Form for alternative racial traits. Take Indomitable faith for a +1 Will Save. Don’t forget you still get still mind for a +2 save vs Enchantments spells and effects.
At first it seems like having a weak will save will really hinder the unchained monk, but that is not really the case. Since WIS is really your only important mental stat you only will be looking for ways to raise it as you level up. You can also focus mostly on STR for your physical stats. This creates a situation where your saves are fairly even. Buy a belt of STR and a headband of WIS. This allows you to maximize those stats for a lot less than if you were trying to boost them all. This means that your saves are actually pretty close. The old monk had ridiculously high will saves to the point he could almost not fail them. The unchained monk has decent will saves because of his WIS.
At 20th level with just a headband of WIS +6 and indomitable faith your saves will be +14 +14 +13. You also get+2 vs enchantments because of still mind making your will save +15 vs charms and such. The old monk at that level would be +14 +14 +18, with +20 vs enchantments.
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I will say - Umonks really come into their own when they use a weapon rather than going unarmed. They get proficiency with all of the monk weapons, and unlike the old monk, they get 1.5x STR damage.
Also, I ran some calculations, and I found that Weapon Focus is not bad at all for Monks, but I'd need to check again.
Very true. Weapon Focus is a solid feat for all martials, but it's even better for monks due to them have some accuracy issues. (Though a bit less for Umonks than for any Core monks but Sohei.)
I'm not dead set on Dwarf, but better defenses is kind of why I like the monk, and one feat for more damage on average doesn't seem worth the loss of a potential +5 to things that just kill you or hurt a looooot.
If you're going for a defensive build (my personal favorite kind of monk) - Umonk probably isn't for you. The highest defense build in the game is probably a core DEX monk with a couple of archetypes. (qinggong & 1-2 more) Umonk is solid - but it comes into its own with STR builds - core monk is better for DEX & defense. (Plus - if you're scrawny - you can do what my monk does and wear a robe & pointy hat with moons & stars on them so that people swing at you first. :P)
If you go Human, Spiritual Balance for a feat can make you nigh-immune to the most dangerous mind-affecting effects of all.If we're thinking of the same Spiritual Balance, I'd agree that it's great to extend Still Mind to possession effects, but I'm not sure that doubling your Still Mind bonus (from +2 to +4 against Enchantment and Possession effects) by spending a ki point counts as being "nigh immune."
Am I missing something?
Oh, I think I misread it then. I thought it was 1 ki point to roll twice on a save. I guess I misread it.
I replied to everyone and then Windows 8 decided to ****ing hate me. Curses.
In short (Not really). I like the dwarf/monk because of defenses outside of AC. As in, literally everything you can defend against that is not directly AC the Dwarf monk is good against (THhe usual Monk stuff like touch and CMD (Which is laughably high for UnMonk) and most saves that are really gonna hurt and are popular amongst jerk spellcasters). The Half elf is pretty damn good, I cannot deny that. There is also Half-Orc with Dat Tattoo and Fate's Favored (Fort is good when staring into the maws of everything that wants to kill you hard with poison/swarms), and get Endurance because why not. The only time the save bonuses for Half-Orc aren't pretty much just great in every way is when you have prayer casted on you, but it's still the best Prayer you've ever heard because of Fate's Favored. I just don't like the Half-Orc for my character concept. Half-Elf is all right tho.
Also, Oread. Oh man, Oread. I love this race. Always have. It's perfect for a monk stat-wise. I see Oread and Dwarf as two halves of the same coin, one being more offense oriented (Better AC and strength) and one more defense (Better Con and eating spells and poison before brunch), though the Dwarf's ability to stave of Magic is really, really good. Like, literally too good according to the race maker index. It's, "Man, Ki Guardian sure is worth not spending my ki to mitigate ridiculous damage for certain party members" good. It makes evasion go from a green feature to a blue feature. IMO of course. If there were some way to get hardy for oread under the Dwarf Blooded feat, it becomes literally perfect... Is there a way to do that? Please tell me there is.
Sansetsukon is amazing. The stats, flavor and everything is amazing. Weapon Focus for it might not even feel so guilty. The biggest issue I have with WF is that I will be attacking with a weapon from 1-5, and I will be using an unarmed strike 5+. This s*** drives me up a wall, and makes power attack a better option by comparison. Though I admit the +1s to hit for a Sansy (Imma call it my Sansy) with WF and MW (Easily attainable within level 1 and maybe two encounters) is very... tempting. I also like that it is a staff and may be easier to get into location where weapons are not really allowed (Can it just be a staff as well? Or is that only a thing in video games I wish were true since I love the idea of this weapon so much?)
Imbicatus, Leg sweep is pretty ridiculous. It would easily be a second style strike for me, it's just that Flying kick is an effective 15ft (Including 5ft step) within a FRA at level 5, increasing to 25 at 6. That more than half the movement of an Oread and Dwarf monk WITH the Fast movement bonuses, and more than most characters in medium+ armor will ever even hope to move.
Also, feats. If I don't choose a Dwarf (Who if I choose, I chose a anti magic dude-bro and will likely grab steel soul, because it's more than worth a feat) because an actual stone(wo)man is cooler, what do I take? Weapon Focus for Sansy entirely depends on if I plan on taking style feats or not. If not, then I can grab WF, Power Attack, whatever the hell else I want. Bonus feats will be dodge and I guess deflect Arrows. Extra cool point for deflecting an arrow and a ray in the same damn turn. What style feats best suit using different weapon? I feel like Monkey Style is the only one lol
the Pummeling style tree could be fun, the Bullrush tree could be fun too, and there is one feat called Barroom Brawler that give "Once per day as a move action, you can gain the benefit of a combat feat that you do not possess for 1 minute. You must otherwise meet the feat’s requirements."
Pummeling Style certainly is quite the feat. If anything, it'd just be fun to throw out ridiculous numbers. Thinking about how much I'd want that extra feat, I like it over Dragon Style to be perfectly honest. It does something funky with crits that I can hardly even fathom the math for. I recall seeing someone saying that with all the attacks a monk can get (Unmonk being one behind) with Imp. Crit, it's something like... a 70ish percent chance to crit? Not to mention the role play. "I flying kick the enemy... Whoops. I mean I made him one with the earth."
Not sure how I feel about bull rush. I'm one of those weirdos that really likes all the INT based combat maneuvers way more than the STR based ones. It just makes you seem so stylish. But... the idea of smothering a bunch of mooks never gets old.
Barroom Brawler, huh? That is some seriously weird stuff right there. Call me a dummy (Feel free. Dummy is rather chummy in the right context) but feats like that just... It's the same reason I can't stand a Cleric or Wizard. In the hands of someone that knows all the bestest things to get and when, ridiculous, but unlike those two, you'd be better of with the feat you KNOW you will use. I'll likely tell my campaign mates about it though.
I checked the feats, and barring ONE of the things the SECOND Monkey Style feats does (These feats do a lot of things), it seems to go really well with a weapon user, and the final feat is great for a Ki Focus weapon (By then, a Blade of the Sword Saint(?) might be in effect really, a long term reason why Weapon Focus still bugs me lol)
Hmmm... I'm down to an Oread or Dwarf and Sansy or Fistofferson. Both races and weapons promise interesting RP and combat strengths, that is for sure. Well, as much as I hate to be that guy (Not really), what does more damage ultimately? Not the races since dwarf defenses/hatred (The campaign will have a lot of goblinoids) skew the results: I mean between Sansy and Pummeling fists of fury. I feel Pummeling style has a bell curve growth, makes up for the crit range easily, style strike synergy (Thinking about it, Pummeling style makes style strikes where the ability is a type of rider WAY better) as well as the idea of one big martial arts move, while the Sansetsukon gets another feat (Allowing WF/PA with perhaps steel soul) and the extra damage from two hands, though that does stop Rope Dart shenanigans. Maybe take pummeling style when Style Strike become a thing? I'll likely use a weapon at first regardless, which opens the level one feat for Power Attack and level 3 for... something stylish!
Imho it's either Sansetsukuon Crane Style or Unarmed Dragon Style.
I prefer Human for both terms due to FCB Ki pool, though the Oread FCB can be good for the Dragon Style build, as it saves you a feat you can use to take Extra Ki.
You can find both of my builds here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sjy4?Brainstorming-for-an-unchained-monk-guide #12
Imho it's either Sansetsukuon Crane Style or Unarmed Dragon Style.
I prefer Human for both terms due to FCB Ki pool, though the Oread FCB can be good for the Dragon Style build, as it saves you a feat you can use to take Extra Ki.
You can find both of my builds here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sjy4?Brainstorming-for-an-unchained-monk-guide #12
Hmm... I understand Crane Style. It's an effective -2/+5 for To-hit/AC when you hit level 3. -2/+4 Prior, although that just puts you at old flurry all the time with a few more points of damage on top. Seems like the minuses to hit end up hurting the bonus damage you get from 2hf. I could be wrong, but I rather like my accuracy. Again, that's just me. The less my die can screw me the better. Also, why the other 2 crane feats? Is it for the -1 when fighting defensively? 1 to 5 in insanely good, but I can't help but feel there could be something better there. I mean, both of you hands are using the Sansetsukon, right? Or is THAT build using the temple sword, as you noted? Because that makes way more sense. Crane Style + 2hf is... weird. Fun fact. With Orc Weapon Expertise, you can get a +2 shield bonus to the only orc weapon. Just came to mind for some reason.
As for the Unarmed build, it seems pretty damn solid all around. Pretty much what any person making a human monk before Unchained would want: dat BAB+1 for those excellent feats. Also the combo of Dragon Roar and Elemental fist is nice if only for a promised success of Stunning Fists and Elemental fists in some regard. You'll have 5 roars a day. That is a lot of mook killing damage. Especially if you're allowed to factor in PA damage to the roar. Yikes Though I wonder how good it is in light of style strikes. Before you'd have to make far more standard actions, but by the time you get Roar, you get 30(+5) movement before/during a full round attack.
Also, how does the Oread help Dragon Style?
@Nicholas. I missed that. Just... wow. Friggin wow. One less good style I guess. Is there even an alternative to Dragon Style for people that wanna beat the tar outta some monsters? Like... not just as effective, but similarly efficient. It's worse than Jabbing style at this point. At least that with new flurry's accuracy promises some more dice of damage. May as well just make it a normal feat that works within other styles.
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Also, how does the Oread help Dragon Style?
FCB to get Critical Focus basically.
@Nicholas. I missed that. Just... wow. Friggin wow. One less good style I guess. Is there even an alternative to Dragon Style for people that wanna beat the tar outta some monsters? Like... not just as effective, but similarly efficient. It's worse than Jabbing style at this point. At least that with new flurry's accuracy promises some more dice of damage. May as well just make it a normal feat that works within other styles.
Hyperbole central. I'd still pick Pummeling Style on every single Brawler/Bloody Knuckled Rowdy/Sacred Fist/Iroran Paladin/etc. I make. DR bypassing and Pummeling Charge are invaluable for those without a pounce.
Also, how does the Oread help Dragon Style?Hyperbole central. I'd still pick Pummeling Style on every single Brawler/Bloody Knuckled Rowdy/Sacred Fist/Iroran Paladin/etc. I make. DR bypassing and Pummeling Charge are invaluable for those without a pounce.
Hmm... That makes more sense I suppose. It's still a bit annoying to me is all. It was such a niche feat exclusively for ostensibly the weakest weapon you can use (Blah blah crit range blah). It is a good way to help those with flurry only.
I think I'll just go unarmed and Dragon Style. It's just... more iconic and has just the right amount of utility. I'm wondering if Elemental Fist and Dragon's Roar are worth it tho. Flying Kick lessens the number of standard actions taken in general, and I view elemental fist as something best used with Roar.
Also, which would be a better choice overall, incase I don't choose human, Weapon Focus or Power Attack (Let's assume the normal progression of weapon 1st them focus on unarmed if PA and unarmed only if WF)
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Roar gives you a Reflex-targeting AOE to combine with your Fort-targeting Stunning Fist. It's not bad.
Power Attack if you have Dragon's Ferocity. Weapon Focus if you don't.
Something I learned recently: you can't 5 foot step and use flying kick.
I was always under the impression that you could 5ft step when you didn't take a move action to move but you can only 5 foot step if you didn't move in a round.
Otherwise if your're set on unarmed you might want to consider the monk of the mantis archetype.
Power attack gives more versatility, but requires more thinking. With weapon focus you always have the bonus when attacking with that weapon. With power attack you can choose to use it as needed. If you are fighting a bunch of low AC low HP minions it works really well. It also works well when fighting creatures with medium AC and high HP. If you are fighting something hard to hit you can choose not to use it so you can actually hit. Weapon focus is also limited to a single weapon, where power attack can be used with any melee weapon.
Something I learned recently: you can't 5 foot step and use flying kick.
I was always under the impression that you could 5ft step when you didn't take a move action to move but you can only 5 foot step if you didn't move in a round.
That is not true. The flying kick is part of the furry of blows and does not require any other actions. This means you get the equivalent to a free move action up to your fast movement bonus. So at 5th level you can move up to 10 feet. You can also make the flying kick between attacks so as long as you have at least one attack left you can make the flying kick. You could also start with the flying kick, or make an attack and then do a flying kick.
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That is not true. The flying kick is part of the furry of blows and does not require any other actions. This means you get the equivalent to a free move action up to your fast movement bonus. So at 5th level you can move up to 10 feet. You can also make the flying kick between attacks so as long as you have at least one attack left you can make the flying kick. You could also start with the flying kick, or make an attack and then do a flying kick.Something I learned recently: you can't 5 foot step and use flying kick.
I was always under the impression that you could 5ft step when you didn't take a move action to move but you can only 5 foot step if you didn't move in a round.
It is true.
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.
While Flying Kick is not a move action, it is movement.
So does a 5 foot step just outright forbid flying kick then? Because that just doesn't seem right. It needs errata because there are a number of styles that allow movement during a flurry as well as 5 foot steps. It makes sense it would work and I'm sure my GM would allow it.
I'm liking a dwarf monk overall. I know I will miss that Hardy bonus. Also, all the other traits will help out. And I wanna use my body as a weapon too. The question is, what would my feat selection look like? Monkey style seems fun, and lets me use my level 1 and 3 feats for something else. I like power attack, weapon focus, monkey style, steel soul, and the other monkey style feats with whatever.
Also, I think my GM will allow 3rd party flaws, giving me another feat at one, which has I would likely take one of the aforementioned earlier, or I can still take Dragon Style feats, along with power attack and whatever at level one.
Any style that causes Movement wouldn't be allowed with a 5ft step. And if you 5ft step you can't do any movement.
Which styles were you thinking allowed movement and a 5ft step?
With flying kick you don’t need to take a 5 foot step. You can as part of the flying kick move up to your fast movement bonus. At 5th level when you get your first style strike that is 10 feet. All this means is that you cannot take a 5 foot step in addition to the movement for flying kick. This does not require, or use a move action. So you can’t take a 5 foot step and attack, and then use a flying kick. You can however attack someone next to you and then take a flying kick against another target as long as you still have an attack left to kick with. You could also take a flying kick before making any attack and then full attack anything within reach after you made your kick.
To answer the question about making 5 footsteps when you already have made a 5 foot step in that same around, the styles are monkey style and snakes style the second feet in each style chain.
I talked to my GM about it, and he's allowing flaws for characters, so even if I'm not human I will get the same amount of feats, making dwarf possibly the most solid option. Here's where I'm at: out of weapon focus, steel soul and power attack, I can take two out of three if I am going into the dragon style chain as soon as possible. Steel soul just seems significantly better than both power attack and weapon focus for it just keeping me alive and fighting longer to be able to use either of the other feats. So it really comes down to which is better overall. I know that statistically power attack is better for damage, especially with 2hf bonus which the dragon chain allows, but a lot of Monk abilities depend on accuracy.
Alternatively I could go with all of them and start later on dragon style or go monkey style, though I will admit, I've never been a huge fan of power attack. Something about penalties to attack just drive me insane.
Honestly you only want Power Attack by level 7, after you get Dragon's Ferocity.
Honestly you only want Power Attack by level 7, after you get Dragon's Ferocity.
Yeah. That will push back Elemental Fist and Dragon's Roar, but I'm not too worried about getting those fast. I wonder if Steel Soul at 7 would make more sense. Right now the allotments I am considering are
Level 1:
Dodge(Monk) Weapon Focus (Unarmed) Steel Soul (Flaw)
Level 2:
Likely Deflect Arrows
Level 3:
Dragon Style
Level 5:
Dragon Ferocity
Level 6:
Mobility (Flying kick makes this a necessity)
Level 7:
Power Attack
My traits would be Glory of Old, One of the traits that gives better unarmed damage (Makes up for loss of power attack), and Wisdom in the Flesh for Stealth or Acrobatics. Some of these may change due to party comp. I wouldn't be surprised if I had to pull something out of my but since no one is a divine caster lol. Doubt it though.
25PB:
Str:17
Dex:14
Con:15 (Post modifier)
Int:08
Wis:18 (Post modifier)
Chr:05 (Is anyone surprised)
Looking at it, taking power attack instead would give me versatility in melee, but given my 17 Str, I would get overall... 5.5-6.5 points more in damage with power attack (For the Sansy)? But that's at -2 to hit (No WF + Power attack) And a trait giving me one more to damage. So that's looking more like 0.5-1.5 if 1 to hit = 2 to damage.
Now if I threw caution to the wind and played, say, something with more strength, I would definitely want to PA with a weapon and likely forget about weapon focus.
I wish weapon focus weren't so boring and necessary lol
Don't tank INT for 15 CON, not worth it. You have 5 +1s and they all should go to STR.