If you mean like a White Dragon being vulnerable to fire?
Vulnerability is the last thing calculated. Make saves, figure out dice damage, subtract energy resistance (could have a spell protecting it etc)...
THEN, as the LAST step, if damage occurs to the target, multiply it and apply to targets hitpoints.
>>Vulnerability is the last thing calculated
Any rules or FAQ support?
Bestiary. Unsure of page number, as I don't have my books handy.
Near the back, in the glossary.
The reasoning is this (I'm gonna stick to a white dragon as the example).
Fireball does, say, 40 points of damage. The white dragon takes 1.5X damage from fire, so any fire damage HITTING it is multiplied.
If it has a ring of elemental resistance (fire) on, that's like a magical forcefield that absorbs, lets say, 30 points.
The fire THEN hits the dragon, and THAT damage is multiplied.
What DOESN'T HAPPEN is multiplying the damage first, because the dragon takes extra damage from fire, it doesn't increase the damage of the spell...
So lets say that fireball, doing 40 points of damage, hits a white dragon and a rogue.
The rogue fails his reflex save, and takes all 40 points. Ouch.
The dragon MAKES his save, halving how much he takes to 20 points. The ring of elemental resistance stops the remaining 20. No damage.
Vulnerability only affects damage that HITS the target. That is why it is the last thing to be calculated. Saves affect the amount of damage getting through, so do spells and magic items.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Amaurot,
One of the things I noticed in your options is that you are rolling extra dice. You don't roll extra dice for energy damage. You multiply the total.
With that said, we get:
Total damage * 1/2 (save) * 1.5 (vulnerability). Now, it doesn't matter which order those two are applied in. They result in the same number.
Example:
A) 50 * 0.5 * 1.5 = 37.5
B) 50 * 1.5 * 0.5 = 37.5
Where it does matter is where you apply energy resistance.
Example:
A) 50 * 0.5 * 1.5 - 10 = 27.5 (27)
B) 50 * 0.5 - 10 * 1.5 = 22.5 (22)
C) 50 - 10 * 0.5 * 1.5 = 30
Clearly, the energy resistance has to be put in the proper place. I *think* I remember a Dev once saying it is last, I am trying to find that reference.
Applying damage is the last step.
So yeah, no extra dice... you just calculate saves/resistances, and when it gets to marking down how many HP they lose, multiply THAT number by 1.5
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the answer is in the Resist Energy spell where it states:
The subject gains resist energy 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature’s hit points.
Application to the creatures hit points is the last thing to happen so Energy Resistance (or at least that supplied by the spell Resist Energy) would be the last thing to happen.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The question should have been asked several times but I want a Official answer.
Ahahahaha, I always love when that's part of a rules question.
Anyways, the two above me are well read and experienced players and are correct on the matter. Vulnerability is the last thing calculated.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If a creature has evasion and makes their save, they take 0 damage. 0 damage times 1.5 = 0.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When you make a successful reflex save with evasion, you take no damage. 0 damage, if you will. Vulnerability applies last, so you take an extra 50% of 0 damage, which as you said, is still 0.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A quick search has turned up that there are many threads on this topic. Most of them seem to say to calculate it in the way that is most advantageous to the defender (which would be energy resistance first, then the other two).
Meanwhile, a 3.5 FAQ states to do the energy resistance first.
Perhaps it is time for a PF FAQ on the topic.
Edit: Not a Dev but James Jacobs says Energy Resistance is last and also here.
I don't know the RAW on this, but for my group it's in the following order: vulnerability, save, resistance.
A creature with vulnerabilities takes half again as much damage (+50%) from a specific energy type, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed or if the save is a success or failure. Creatures with a vulnerability that is not an energy type instead take a –4 penalty on saves against spells and effects that cause or use the listed vulnerability (such as spells with the light descriptor). Some creatures might suffer additional effects, as noted in their descriptions.
I don't know the RAW on this, but for my group it's in the following order: vulnerability, save, resistance.
A creature with vulnerabilities takes half again as much damage (+50%) from a specific energy type, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed or if the save is a success or failure. Creatures with a vulnerability that is not an energy type instead take a –4 penalty on saves against spells and effects that cause or use the listed vulnerability (such as spells with the light descriptor). Some creatures might suffer additional effects, as noted in their descriptions.
Applying damage happens last though, so why would you multiply it first?
If you have a ring or spell that subtracts from the damage, you are implying that vulnerable creatures have an aura that overrides magic and magic items!
Because of the bolded part in the quote. And because JJ seems to play the same way
Okay, so the bolded part doesn't say WHEN to multiply it, so why doing it before applying any resistances (spells/items)-just wondering about the logic behind that.
Interesting that JJ does it wrong... to be fair though, he isn't a rules guy.
My reasoning is, the bolded part says regardless of saves, so it has to be before they are figured in.
That makes the rest fall into place easy:
1) vulnerability.
2) save.
3) resistances (spell or item)
4) take remaining damage.
My reasoning is, the bolded part says regardless of saves, so it has to be before they are figured in.
That makes the rest fall into place easy:
1) vulnerability.
2) save.
3) resistances (spell or item)
4) take remaining damage.
So you are applying a weakness that a monster has to its gear as well...
Where is the text regarding that?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Vulnerability applies to damage taken, not damage done.
Vulnerability applies to damage taken, not damage done.
This.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Think about it this way: A white dragon takes more damage from fire because they burn easier, not because they augment fire spells that hit them. The spell is not any more powerful, they just burn easier. A fireball doesn't get close to a white dragon and think to itself "Oh hey, he has vulnerability to me! Better become more powerful but only when I'm hitting him."
So, you are doing Save, resistance, vulnerability?
What about the bolded line in the vulnerability then?
So, you are doing Save, resistance, vulnerability?
What about the bolded line in the vulnerability then?
What about it? Nowhere does it say it increases the damage dealt BEFORE anything else is applied...
So I do it the way I do damage for anything else:
Calculate spell damage normally.
Apply saves.
Apply resistances (if any)
Apply remaining damage (modify by Vulnerability, if appropriate).
The text under the Vulnerability entry doesn't address order of operations, so I don't modify order of operations.
Why do you?
Yes, that order of operations.
The bolded line proves nothing except that resistances apply to effects that allow saves and effects that don't allow saves, and for the former it specifies the resistance still applies regardless if they made their save or not.
Guys, it does not matter when save or vulnerability is applied as long as there is not resistance between them. Save then Vulnerability or Vulnerability then save is exactly the same result.
The ONLY question is where does the Energy Resistance go. If it goes before the multiplication, between it, or after it.
JJ is not wrong here. He is stating where Energy Resistance goes and there is no text stating that Vulnerability is last while there is text that states Resist Energy (the spell) is last (damage applied).
|
No you apply the weakness first. The creature may or may not have spells or magic items protecting it so you calculate the damage as if it didn't.
So if you cast fireball vs white dragon for 30 points of damage and multiply it by 1.5 for 45 total points of fire damage. Now the white dragon gets a Reflex saving throw which it miraculously succeeds at, so it takes half the damage per the fireball spell so 22.5 or 22 points of fire damage.
If the dragon also happens to have a ring of fire resistance, leser or drank a potion of resist energy (10) then you take 10 points off the remaining total for 12 points of fire damage.
And at the end of the day if the dragon is a rogue with evasion or has another ring of evasion then it takes zero damage because it made the save.
--School of Vrock
Wrong. Damage taken is increased, not damage done. The fireball is not any more powerful, the creature simply takes more damage from it.
You need to read vulnerabilities. It specifies that the creature takes 50% increased damage, not that the spell is increased by 50%. With that logic, a fireball cast at a white dragon becomes empowered. It does not become empowered.
Cast fireball for 30 damage. Dragon makes save so it takes half, or 15. The only question is if you apply weakness now or after resistence. I'm inclined to say now, because it makes sense to me that a white dragon would need stronger Magic to protect it from fire than another creature would. So it would increase to 22.5, or 22. Then fire resistence would make it 12.
It's a good thing order of operations doesn't matter when it comes to multiplication, so as long as we make the choice to apply resistences last than there is no difference. You're still wrong, but at least the final number is right :)
It does matter if resistences apply before vulnerabilities, which I'm not sure on.
An appeal to simplicity is a logical fallacy. The easiest way isn't necessarily the correct way.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok did some digging and the 3.5 FAQ had this to say about Resistances and Vulnerabilities...
From the 3.5 FAQ:
"If a monster has resistance and vulnerability to the
same kind of damage (such as fire), which effect is applied
first? [...]
If the creature has both resistance and vulnerability to the
same kind of damage, apply the resistance (which reduces the
damage dealt by the effect) before applying the vulnerability
(which increases the damage taken by the creature). For
example, imagine our frost giant wore a ring of minor fire
resistance (granting resistance to fire 10). If the save failed, the
frost giant would take 37 points of fire damage: 35 (fireball) –
10 (resistance to fire 10) = 25, plus one-half of 25 (12.5,
rounded down to 12). If the save succeeded, the frost giant
would take only 10 points of damage: 17 (half damage from the
fireball, rounded down) – 10 (resistance to fire 10) = 7, plus
one-half of 7 (3.5, rounded down to 3).
As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate
an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or
special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s
most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this
typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first,
before applying any effects that would increase damage."
So I haven't found anything that changed enough in Pathfinder to supersede this. Looks like you're correct.
Ah, very interesting. So my assumption was wrong. Good find, thanks! Could you possibly link us to your source?
I think we may need a PF FAQ on this because, putting Energy Resistance in the middle is just...odd.
It may be that that is the best result for the defender and that is the premise the 3.5 FAQ is operating under.
Ok, so according to 3.5 the order is Save, resistance, vulnerability?
I'll bring that to the attention of my group and we'll be discussing it.
Thanks!
Look at it this way folks.
1)Fireball damage is calculated for area.
2)Saves are rolled.
3)Magical protection then affects how much damage hits targets
4)Damage that gets through magical protection (think of it as a force field) is multiplied by Vulnerability.
It's LAYERS. Like Star Trek.
If the hull takes double damage from Phasers, you don't multiply that and apply it to the Shields! You gotta get through the Shields first (or in this case, saving throws, then magical protection).