So I saw there was a thread out about the general power level of the various classes that get 9-level spellcasting, but I am curious about people's opinions regarding a more specialized area: how would you rank the different 9-level spell lists? I'd definitely be interested to see lists including all arcane and divine casters plus the psychic. Heck, throw in the pre-Unchained summoner spell list if you think it qualifies. I'd have a crack at it myself, but I am almost exclusively only familiar with the 6-level lists. Aside from placing sorcerer/wizard at no. 1 and (possibly) cleric/oracle at no. 2 I would feel pretty lost. Anyway, any input would be very welcome!
Cheers,
- Gears
Aha. That is an important distinction I did not consider. Yes, I would certainly agree with that. I did realize, by the way, that the OP was a bit vague regarding the criteria for ranking. I was thinking overall power level (as vague a term as that is), but if someone wants to just rank their favorite spell lists in terms of which have the most fun spells on them, that's fine too. I'm just curious to learn what people's views are on this matter, as the topic came up in my gaming group and we realized we didn't really any of us have a clear picture of how the different 9-level spell lists stack up.
Actually sorcerers often have spells the wizard does not have access to because of bloodline spells. This will depend on the bloodline of the sorcerer. Some like Groveborn have 7 non-wizard spells, while others have none.
Clerics often have the advantage over oracles because oracles get only one mystery spells, where clerics get two domain spells.
The sorcerer/wizard list is probably overall the most powerful. Its only real lack is healing (Condition removal), and the fact its buffs and protections may not be as strong as the cleric.
The cleric/oracle list is good for healing, buffing and protection but is generally weaker at direct combat spells.
The druid spell list is probably the most versatile list out there. There is almost nothing they are not able to do in one way or another. They may not be the best at everything, or even anything, but they can do everything.
The witch spell list is probably the second most versatile but focuses heavily on mind affecting spells and has very few direct damage spells. Unlike other arcane spell casters witches can actually make good healers.
The next thing to consider is if you are a prepared or spontaneous caster, and also if you are divine or arcane.
The prepared divine caster knows every spell on his list. This is a huge advantage that no other type of spell caster can match.
The arcane prepared caster can theoretically know every spell on the list, but in reality has limits placed on them. They also have a weakness in that all their spells are contained in something that can be taken away rendering them useless. A wizard without his spell book, or a witch without her familiar is a glorified commoner.
Spontaneous casters have a limited number of spells known so while the spell list may be the same as a prepared caster they don’t have access to as much of it. The good point for arcane casters is that it is a lot harder to take away their spells then for a prepared caster.
In terms of sheer power I would rank the lists Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Witch, Oracle, and finally Sorcerer. For who has the best list I would rank them as follows Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Oracle, Witch, and Sorcerer. The sorcerer is last because he gets the least amount of spells and gets the bloodline spell 1 level latter than the oracle gets his mystery spell.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I'd say, just in terms of the spell list:
sorc/wiz
psychic
cleric/oracle
shaman
druid
witch
But they each have their strengths and weaknesses, and most of the classes have some way to snag a few spells that aren't on the main lists to shore up some of those weaknesses.
The shaman is pretty infamous for being able to grab spells from all over the place.
Not sure if archetypes are coming into it, but the Spirit Guide Oracle can have 2 different lists of bonus spells known.
In their base forms
1) Wiz/Sorc
2) Cleric/Oracle
3) Druid or Witch... hard to tell
4) Shaman
Hmm. That's interesting. I'm most curious how druid, shaman and witch stack up, since people seem pretty much in agreement regarding the top two spots. Obviously, people can discuss this however they like, but I am really only curious about which spell lists, in isolation, contain the best spells. This would mean excluding bloodlines, domains and other class features, merely looking at the spell selection. I'm also curious where the psychic falls. It does seem a bit similar to the witch in containing a lot of (duh!) mind-affecting stuff, but it lacks the healing aspect, and obviously contains all these wacky new psychic spells.
Hmm. That's interesting. I'm most curious how druid, shaman and witch stack up, since people seem pretty much in agreement regarding the top two spots. Obviously, people can discuss this however they like, but I am really only curious about which spell lists, in isolation, contain the best spells. This would mean excluding bloodlines, domains and other class features, merely looking at the spell selection. I'm also curious where the psychic falls. It does seem a bit similar to the witch in containing a lot of (duh!) mind-affecting stuff, but it lacks the healing aspect, and obviously contains all these wacky new psychic spells.
Well the simplest comparison is done via the advanced spells search (its not completely upto date but you get the picture)
Wiz = 1213
Cleric = 760
Druid = 514
Witch = 712
Shaman = 297
This obviously doesnt give you the complete picture but its fairly good - it doesnt include domains, mysteries.. etc. Between the witch and the druid its a bit of a quality vs quantity issue IMO.....
Those are some interesting numbers, but I imagine the quality v. quantity issue could be quite an important one, all other things being equal. I mean to say, I don't think anyone would claim that the shaman spell list contains the 297 best spells ever printed by Paizo, but if one were to compile a spell list of all the best spells one could ever want, it could probably be made a lot smaller than 297. Still, I hadn't noticed that the witch list was that much larger than the druid one. This is probably one of the reasons why when reading the druid list almost every other spell jumps out as at the very least "ooohhh interesting" whereas when reading through the witch one there's long swathes I feel like just skipping past. Could be to do with druids having more unique spells than witches too, obviously. Thanks for pointing that out, Silver Surfer. Looking at the sheer numbers hadn't occurred to me!
Cheers,
- Gears
Lulz poor psychic... no one mentions him lol
Well, I wonder if that's because people are still coming to grips with that class or if its spell list is just somehow far below all the others. I honestly wouldn't be too dismayed if the latter were the case. As a rule me and my table find 9th-level casters crazy OP, and if one has come out that is the "worst" in that division, that might be a step towards playability on our end.
I've got a level 9 psychic in PFS. I will firmly state that the psychic list is nowhere near the power level of the wizard list, probably comparable to the witch list. General ranking:
Wiz/Sorc
Cleric/Oracle
Druid
Witch
Psychic
Shaman
My big problem with Psychic is the lack of non-Will save spells. Lots of good buffs, though, and I got to make a character who focuses on drugs with actual mechanical effects besides addiction. Witch gets some healing stuff that the psychic would really like. If you play in an environment that includes mindscapes, psychic absolutely wrecks anything without immunity to mind-affecting.
Oh! I had missed that Charlie Bell had put the psychic on his list. Sorry about that.
That seems like a sound analysis, Serisan. I suppose it is rather a common thread for many mind-affecting spells to be rather wonkily balanced. I could be wrong, but it seems to me there's a trend in the design philosophy where mind-affecting stuff is generally very powerful, because so many monsters are immune to it. Which sadly means it has a tendency to completely steamroll those monsters that aren't. Interesting, nonetheless.
Oh! I had missed that Charlie Bell had put the psychic on his list. Sorry about that.
That seems like a sound analysis, Serisan. I suppose it is rather a common thread for many mind-affecting spells to be rather wonkily balanced. I could be wrong, but it seems to me there's a trend in the design philosophy where mind-affecting stuff is generally very powerful, because so many monsters are immune to it. Which sadly means it has a tendency to completely steamroll those monsters that aren't. Interesting, nonetheless.
It's a fair observation. Single target fights are completely facerolled by Create Mindscape unless the target is immune to mind-affecting - no save, you're unconscious, and my buddy is about to coup de grace you.
hehe.. I've been playing this game in one form or another for 30+ years... I've seen a 9th level spell cast maybe twice.
It's a fair observation. Single target fights are completely facerolled by Create Mindscape unless the target is immune to mind-affecting - no save, you're unconscious, and my buddy is about to coup de grace you.Oh! I had missed that Charlie Bell had put the psychic on his list. Sorry about that.
That seems like a sound analysis, Serisan. I suppose it is rather a common thread for many mind-affecting spells to be rather wonkily balanced. I could be wrong, but it seems to me there's a trend in the design philosophy where mind-affecting stuff is generally very powerful, because so many monsters are immune to it. Which sadly means it has a tendency to completely steamroll those monsters that aren't. Interesting, nonetheless.
It's worse than that, long range, no line of sight, and by the example no line of effect, so get within 600' of the king and put him in a mindscape surrounded by your allies. The king is dead, long live the king.
hehe.. I've been playing this game in one form or another for 30+ years... I've seen a 9th level spell cast maybe twice.
It's less about the 9th level spells and more about the 9-level lists. 4th level spells (pretty common, really) are already crazy when you get to jump on those.
In their base forms
1) Wiz/Sorc
2) Cleric/Oracle
3) Druid or Witch... hard to tell
4) Shaman
I think this is (roughly) as it should be, in terms of class balance. Generally speaking, the better the class features, the worse the spell list.
The Wizard & Sorcerer get fairly weak class features beyond their excellent spell lists - can't wear armor, d6 hit dice...The Cleric has better saves, hit dice, BAB, channelling and domains.
The Druid gets better saves, hit dice, BAB, wild-shaping abilities and an animal companion.
The Witch gets unlimited-use hexes.
Etc.
Right. 9-level spell lists are, especially to groups that don't tend to play very high up into the teens, about (as a prepared caster) getting 3rd-level spells when the fighter hasn't even gotten his second iterative attack and then 4th-level ones at 7th level. The reason I started this thread, though, was partly because I often hear people talk about the 9-level casters as sort of equals, and I suppose they may well be compared to everyone else, but I wanted to get a better grip on the internal divisions within the top two tiers.
Regarding the whole mindscape thing, yeah, that's crazy. This is rather off-topic (then again I did start the thread :P) but I think the plethora of blanket immunities in the bestiaries contributes a lot to making mind-affecting effects and certain other effects extremely unevenly balanced. Even when I am writing up homebrew stuff, I often catch myself thinking things like, "Well, everyone and their grandma is immune to fire damage or fear effects anyway, so let's give the class this ability that injects napalm and high octane nightmare fuel straight into the enemies' veins with a melee touch attack 4 levels earlier".
I still like the psychic spell list the more I look at it, though, even if mindscape seems rather nuts. I like how Spell Focus (Divination) becomes a more attractive feat choice with things like the Mind Thrust line. Perhaps it's just my group's playing style, but that's a feat I've never seen taken at my table.
@Matthew Downie: I think that makes perfect sense. I mean, druids' class features are pretty insane (although the ones that are not wildshape plus nature bond I suppose ain't fantastic, but that's what archetypes are for). Imagine if they cast off the wizard spell list. Yikes.
Right. 9-level spell lists are, especially to groups that don't tend to play very high up into the teens, about (as a prepared caster) getting 3rd-level spells when the fighter hasn't even gotten his second iterative attack and then 4th-level ones at 7th level. The reason I started this thread, though, was partly because I often hear people talk about the 9-level casters as sort of equals, and I suppose they may well be compared to everyone else, but I wanted to get a better grip on the internal divisions within the top two tiers.
Regarding the whole mindscape thing, yeah, that's crazy. This is rather off-topic (then again I did start the thread :P) but I think the plethora of blanket immunities in the bestiaries contributes a lot to making mind-affecting effects and certain other effects extremely unevenly balanced. Even when I am writing up homebrew stuff, I often catch myself thinking things like, "Well, everyone and their grandma is immune to fire damage or fear effects anyway, so let's give the class this ability that injects napalm and high octane nightmare fuel straight into the enemies' veins with a melee touch attack 4 levels earlier".
I still like the psychic spell list the more I look at it, though, even if mindscape seems rather nuts. I like how Spell Focus (Divination) becomes a more attractive feat choice with things like the Mind Thrust line. Perhaps it's just my group's playing style, but that's a feat I've never seen taken at my table.
I'll be honest, my psychic's spells known include only a handful of new spells from OA (Synesthesia, Oneiric Horror, Mental Block, Demand Offering, and Grave Words). Again, I'm level 9. Most everything I have actually comes from the CRB. Bear in mind that I have 30 spells known, yet I only have 5 from OA.
It was rather huge to me that not everything just got thrown into Enchantment, though. Oneiric Horror is definitely one of my most-used OA spells and it's Illusion. Synesthesia is my #2, and it's also Illusion. If they had put everything in Enchantment, the value of that spell focus would be astronomical. Divination does come up with other stuff (Mental Block), as well.
I still like the psychic spell list the more I look at it, though, even if mindscape seems rather nuts. I like how Spell Focus (Divination) becomes a more attractive feat choice with things like the Mind Thrust line. Perhaps it's just my group's playing style, but that's a feat I've never seen taken at my table.
Mind Probe/Dream Scan are also good reasons to take Divination focus. Steal all the answers from their minds.