I'm a drow cleric of with the Chaos and Plant (deacay) domains. I've got a one-level dip in unchained monk, and I've got one hell of an unarmed strike loaded and ready to go. Assuming for a moment that my alignment works, my question is how to resolve multiple saves that trigger off of a single attack.
1. I've got the Domain Strike feat set to the Touch of Chaos domain power. I'd like this to resolve first.
2. I've got a conductive spell storing amulet of mighty fists. I'd like to use the spell storing property to cast bestow curse and give the target -4 to saves.
3. I'd next like to force a save vs. the Disease (harm) variant channel effect thanks to the conductive property of my amulet.
4. I'd like to force a save vs. an injury poison smeared on my fist.
5. I'd like to force a save vs. stunning fist.
Can I do all of that in the preferred order, or is there some other timing mechanism that determines which save happens when?
As far as I know, there is no specific order of operations when a character is hit by multiple things that require a saving throw. Usually the GM just decides what the order is at his convenience.
Random is the way.
Random is the way.
With this burning hunk of Limburger I've concocted, I'm tempted to agree.
I rule that the controller of multiple abilities has control over any choices to be made about them, including the order they apply. I can't see how any other ruling would be fair.
I rule that the controller of multiple abilities has control over any choices to be made about them, including the order they apply. I can't see how any other ruling would be fair.
I would be fine with that ruling (while thinking it a little powerful), but to say any other ruling is unfair seems a bit harsh. Random is by definition fair because you're leaving it up to chance: unbiased, unprejudiced, fair.
I'm a drow cleric of with the Chaos and Plant (deacay) domains. I've got a one-level dip in unchained monk, and I've got one hell of an unarmed strike loaded and ready to go. Assuming for a moment that my alignment works, my question is how to resolve multiple saves that trigger off of a single attack.
1. I've got the Domain Strike feat set to the Touch of Chaos domain power. I'd like this to resolve first.
2. I've got a conductive spell storing amulet of mighty fists. I'd like to use the spell storing property to cast bestow curse and give the target -4 to saves.
3. I'd next like to force a save vs. the Disease (harm) variant channel effect thanks to the conductive property of my amulet.
4. I'd like to force a save vs. an injury poison smeared on my fist.
5. I'd like to force a save vs. stunning fist.
Can I do all of that in the preferred order, or is there some other timing mechanism that determines which save happens when?
Added links to your quote for reference.
I recall playing it was victim's choice which to deal with first. That may have been 3.X or 4. I did not find any support in the CRB for any order.
I think what makes the most sense is to treat them as all happen at the same time, without benefiting from the effect of each other's failures. The only exception is an immediate action would occur first, and a swift action would occur last. This is because the immediate action interrupts the flow of actions, and a swift action occurs after the preceding action.
Your steps:
1) Swift to activate, and provokes AoO
2) Free action
3) Standard action to channel, but can not be conducted since it is not a [melee|ranged] touch attack.
4) Resolved with attack damage
5) Declare use before attack, and resolved with attack damage if you hit
So. If you channel, you cannot attack that round. If you attack, you cannot channel that round. Pick one or the other.
When you attack, it goes like so:
1) Declare use of Stunning Fist
2) If you miss, that attack is done. If you have additional attacks in the round, they cannot get the Stunning Fist.
3) The first attack to hit with the poisoned hand triggers the Poison. Stunning Fist may also have been triggered. You might also trigger the curse. Victim makes saves simultaneously vs. all triggered effects. After determining save/fail of all effects, apply effects.
4) Use a swift to trigger the domain touch after a hit. Resolve saves as normal, but using effects from step 3 as applied.
As I see it, you need two standard actions and a swift to trigger all 5 steps.
My recommendation: skip the conductive enchant, as it does not help.
Do the following:
1) Round 1: Cast Bestow Curse, and land it as a touch attack. Easiest AC to hit, and most effect for helping the rest of the routine.
2) Round 2a: Declare Stunning Fist, flurry, starting with non-poisoned hand. Hope to land the Stunning Fist.
3) Round 2b: Flurry until you hit once. Activate domain strike
4) Round ?: Finish the flurry with the poisoned hand, hoping it lands during domain strike effect.
/cevah
I think what makes the most sense is to treat them as all happen at the same time, without benefiting from the effect...
Thanks for the detailed reply! The hyperlinking is particularly useful. I've got some additional thoughts though.
The last line of domain strike specifies that it does not provoke an AoO.
Your swift action ruling makes sense in principle, but the implication is that I've got to wait until the end of a full attack action to apply the effects of the swift action. What's actually happening in play is that I land a domain strike on the first attack of a flurry, but don't benefit from its effects on my subsequent attacks. That seems odd. The choices seem to be a swift action taking place in the middle of a full round action (illegal), or an effect generated by one attack not coming into play until after several additional attacks resolve (nonsensical). I guess you could conceptualize it as a five-finger death punch sort of thing with a delayed timer, but it just feels off. It also drastically weakens my character, which means it must be wrong. :P
Good call on the conductive weapon. I'd confused it with "channel smite." Very different effects. Even if I do choose to go with channel smite, it does not play well with domain strike since both require a swift action. If I find some way to acquire spell-like abilities however, the conductive property could still be useful as an additional resource for the build. Ditto quick channel.
You can activate with a swift after any attack in the attack sequence. It is legal.
Your later attacks benefit from effects landed on previous attacks, even in the same round.
My bad on the AoO. Not sure where that came from, and I missed the text you mentioned. :-/
Which is better? Making a touch attack to impose worst of 2*d20, or forcing a Will save to land a -4 penalty across the board. Not being a DPS calculating type, I don't know which is more effective. I think it would be the curse, but cannot be sure.
Lets say you are Cleric 7/Monk 1. Wis=18(initial)+2(level bumps)+4(headband) = 24. DC of Bestow Curse would be 20. BAB=5(cleric)+1(monk flurry)+2(items/feats) = 8/8/3. Do you think it more likely to land a DC 20 or a BAB +8 vs. your opponent?
If you get surprise, they loose Dex, and so that changes the odds. If they are a caster, they more likely have a good Will save. Too many variables to know for sure.
/cevah
You can activate with a swift after any attack in the attack sequence. It is legal. /cevah
That swift action thing seems to hold up. Sounds like I was reading too much into your rule. This is pretty consistent, and strikes me as balanced.
As for the whole "which is better?" thing, I believe there is a chart from some 5th Ed. D&D guys detailing when it is better to apply "disadvantage" and when it's better to apply a straight penalty. As I recall, for most level appropriate challenges the disadvantage method equates to approximately -5 on the roll. I think that makes it the stronger play. Actually, I just found it. Just google "Advantage and Disadvantage in D&D Next: The Math."
I guess that if you're having trouble getting anything to stick, you could deliver the touch as a standard before using a move action to quick channel a debuff from variant channeling.
The build isn't quite as powerful as I'd at first hoped, but it does seem pretty versatile.
My personal rule of thumb on this would be:
(1) Resolve anything that is mandatory first.
Here, that is poison and the stunning fist. Probably a die roll to determine order.
(2) Next, anything that involves a player choice is resolved according to the player's choice.
Here, domain strike, conductive, and spell storing all allow for the player to decide whether to use them or not after the attack hits. To me that implies being able to choose the order in which they are used.
Also, don't forget to take Enforcer when you get the chance. Punch for non-lethal and take the free action intimidate. Shaken is a -2 to saves.
While I really want to say "let the player decide," I think we're going to have to parse the text of the individual rules at play:
Domain Strike: If you make a successful unarmed strike against an opponent, in addition to dealing your unarmed strike damage, you can use a swift action to deliver the effects of the chosen granted power to that opponent.
Spell Storing: Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires.
Injury Poison: These poisons are primarily delivered through the attacks of certain creatures and through weapons coated in the toxin. Injury poisons do not usually have an onset time and have a frequency of 1 round.
Stunning Fist: Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw etc. etc.
So we've got
1) Domain Strike: Swift action triggered by successful hit.
2) Spell Storing: Free action triggered by damage.
3) Poison: Non-action upon damage (thanks to the damage reduction rules caveat, we know the injury poison effect is actually tied to damage)
4) Stunning Fist: Non-action upon damage.
If we're trying to make sense of all this, it seems like the poison and stunning fist would happen first, and their order would be subject to GM discretion. Then the domain strike and spell storing would happen afterwards because they are separate actions, swift and free respectively. These cannot interrupt an ongoing action while it's still resolving, which is why they would happen second. Being actions, they would also resolve in an order of the user's choosing.
The most beneficial legal order should look like this:
1 & 2) Poison & Stunning Fist, no RAW order
3) Domain Strike
4) Spell Storing
My head hurts. I think Ima go have a lie down.
Which is better? Making a touch attack to impose worst of 2*d20, or forcing a Will save to land a -4 penalty across the board. Not being a DPS calculating type, I don't know which is more effective. I think it would be the curse, but cannot be sure.Statistically, the swing from 2 d20 is about -3, but you gain the added benefit of making it nearly impossible (1/400) of rolling a 20.
Considering there is no save vs Touch of Chaos, but Will negates Bestow Curse, I'd say Touch of Chaos is the clear winner here as it sets you up for more success with Bestow Curse.
Also the attack mod should be higher after factoring in Str (or Dex), and possibly other buffs.
No save for Touch of Chaos, but you do have a melee touch attack to land.
No attack for bestow curse, but you have a save to deal with.Generally, you have an attack roll or a saving throw on things. It is rare that you have neither or both, This is why I saud it varies based on what you face.
/cevah
If you're flurrying for multiple attacks, you have the option of spreading these effects over multiple attacks, though the poison MUST be on the first attack. Thus, if you have 2 attacks/round:
1st attack: Poison, then ToC
2nd attack: Curse, Channel, Stunning Fist
This assumes that both attacks will hit, though, and we know how dice like to play with us some days.
The thread title sounds like a Monty Python roleplaying group, "the Order of Multiple Simultaneous Saving Effects."
The thread title sounds like a Monty Python roleplaying group, "the Order of Multiple Simultaneous Saving Effects."
Heh. I thought it sounded more like a bad anime.
Chaotic Curse of Venomous Fisting! HAAAAA!!!
though the poison MUST be on the first attack.
I thought so too at first, but then I realized that you can simply unarmed strike with any non-poisoned body part for the first attack, then punch with the poisoned appendage for the second attack. For flavor's sake, I'd actually envisioned some kind of poisoned bandage that the dude could wrap around his elbow, foot, knee, etc. Hell, the advantage of an unarmed strike poisoner is that you could poison everything ACCEPT one fist. That way you can poison every round without having to draw multiple weapons.
(So Quicken SLA?)
That is an amazing option for this build. Good call.
Stop the presses!
"Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
"You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action."
It sounds like domain strike and spell storing CAN interrupt an ongoing action as it's resolving. Therefore, the best legal order to take these actions is:
1. Domain Strike
2. Spell Storing
3 & 4) Poison & Stunning Fist, no RAW order
If they all occur simultaneously they wouldn't effect any other saves made during that process of making a save. Only subsequent effects/attacks that target them would benefit from things that reduce saves etc.
So, trying to deliver everything it one is actually a bad idea, because they wont have the penalties from the things you want them to.
You will have to spread it out. Otherwise, things that occur at the same time all happen independently of anything else that occurred at that same time/effect/attack.
If they all occur simultaneously...
That's the thing. If you look closely at the triggering conditions, then only Poison and Stunning Fist seems to occur from the same trigger. The other two enable you to take a free/swift action, which seems to imply that you can choose the timing.
As for the Poison/Stunning Fist thing, simultaneity seems as good a solution as any.
If you really want to start splitting hairs, query whether you should be able to wait until you know the result of a saving through to decide whether to apply a given free/swift action.
If you really want to start splitting hairs, query whether you should be able to wait until you know the result of a saving through to decide whether to apply a given free/swift action.
Yuck. That does sound like a can of worms. Happily, the distinction is unnecessary in this case. As far as I can tell, the correct order of operations here is:
1. Declare attack.
2. Announce Stunning Fist.
3. Roll attack. Hit like a champ with your unarmed strike.
4. Announce your intention to use Domain Strike as a swift action.
5. Resolve the Touch of Chaos effect. No save involved.
6. Roll damage and resolve damage.
7. If the creature was actually damaged, continue to next step. Otherwise stop.
8. Use a free action to apply Bestow Curse via the spell storing property.
9. Conduct a town hall style debate to decide whether poison or stunning applies next.
10. Duck the copy of the Core Rules that your GM just threw at your head for making him roll three saves.
11. Ask if it's too late to declare that you meant to deal nonlethal damage, because it would be nice to roll intimidate for the Enforcer feat you picked up last level.
12. After an extended argument about the whole Enforcer thing, use a move action to quick channel your Variant Channel: Disease (harm) to apply the sickened condition.
13. Make petty comments on the group's forum after you're kicked out of game night.
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I always interpreted it in the same way as Claxton explained. If target is being afflicted by several effects in a given moment and is required a Save or any other roll, he would simply make those rolls without any penalties from those effects because they are all happening in the same moment. If the effects were split among attacks, that would be a different story.
Adam
I always interpreted it in the same way as Claxton explained. If target is being afflicted by several effects in a given moment and is required a Save or any other roll, he would simply make those rolls without any penalties from those effects because they are all happening in the same moment. If the effects were split among attacks, that would be a different story.
Adam
Yep. If all effects are not simultaneous then the previous effects can affect subsequent rolls for saves or whatever else.
I did not look closely at what the OP was asking about in particular, only that he was asking what happened when multiple things happened simultaneously.
Sounds like OP needs to look closely at what will and wont happen simultaneously if this is the case with his abilities.
Sounds like OP needs to look closely at what will and wont happen simultaneously if this is the case with his abilities.
It looks like only the poison and stunning truly trigger off of the same effect. Everything else allows you to spend a free or swift action to produce an effect, which IMO means that the active player can choose the order to apply those effects.
For my particular case, that means that, by your ruling, there's no chance a poison that targets constitution could help provide a penalty to the save vs. Stunning Fist. Seems fair.
Thanks to all for the assist! Barring any new evidence, I think I'm satisfied with the ruling here.