DEX Based Eastern Weapons.

[Oddeofreq]

First off, Ignoring RAW.

Should the Kusarigama, double-chained Kama, and the Kyoketsu Shoge be considered to have the Finesse Ability?

i propose this be errata'd

If not, could you explain your logic behind your decision?

I would like to submit these weapon demonstration to express why i have this question:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCBu3H-ajgE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gt1jL0tlTM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmFR6AN8bHI

[Maezer]

No, they are not considered to have Finesse ability. Because its not printed in the rules text, and it would create significant confusion for them to errata'd this many years after publication.

Try convincing your GM to add the finesse property to them based on video evidence. You'll probably have better luck.

[Lost In Limbo]

No, unfortunately since they are two-handed weapons they cannot be finessed without special rules text in their description saying so, which they don't have.

As to your videos, I've also seen videos of things like longswords used in very graceful and fluid way. Doesn't mean they're finessable either.

Edit: Also. that guy from the second video definitely seems a bit more STR based than DEX based in his fighting style, so possibly bad evidence there.

[Oddeofreq]

Maezer wrote:

No, they are not considered to have Finesse ability. Because its not printed in the rules text, and it would create significant confusion for them to errata'd this many years after publication.

Try convincing your GM to add the finesse property to them based on video evidence. You'll probably have better luck.

Lost In Limbo wrote:

No, unfortunately since they are two-handed weapons they cannot be finessed without special rules text in their description saying so, which they don't have.

As to your videos, I've also seen videos of things like longswords used in very graceful and fluid way. Doesn't mean they're finessable either.

Edit: Also. that guy from the second video definitely seems a bit more STR based than DEX based in his fighting style, so possibly bad evidence there.

why was it never written as a finesse weapon?

[Melkiador]

You can blame the spiked chain from 3.x. A weapon with reach and finesse can be very strong. We have only very recently gained an option like that.

[SlimGauge]

Oddeofreq wrote:

First off, Ignoring RAW.

Ok, this is enough for me to flag this as "wrong forum".

[Melkiador]

It's a question about the rules instead of a question using the rules. I never noticed how vague the title "Rules Questions" is before. I'll agree this probably belongs in General, but it'd be an honest mistake to put it here.

[Avoron]

Melkiador wrote:

You can blame the spiked chain from 3.x. A weapon with reach and finesse can be very strong. We have only very recently gained an option like that.

We've had Whip Mastery for four years and long lash kobold tail attachments for three years.

As of last year, any piercing reach weapon is potentially finessable by combining Phalanx Soldier or Titan Mauler with Swashbuckler or Daring Champion.

And lets not forget polymorphing into creatures with finessable natural weapons that have reach, which has been around since the Core Rulebook and has been getting steadily better all this time.

Anyway, the main draw of the Elven Branched Spear when it came out wasn't that it provided something entirely new, it was that it took a lot less effort and system mastery to use that the options that were previously available. The elven flavor and bonus to attacks of opportunity are just icing on the cake.

[Zwordsman]

Well wrong forum.. "ignore raw" and all. General discussion is better

Aesthetically I think they should be finessable. But, they are two handed weapons so that makes sense they aren't.
They're very much the kind of weapon that takes both power and skill. so having either optin would be fine to me.

Plus this is fantasy. and a trope is dexterous ninjas.

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I didn't look up the weapons. But depending on the stats. There is the possibilty of using the swashbuckler finesse trick.
NOTE: THERE ARE SOME DEBATE AS TO WHETHER WEAPON SIZES QUALIFYFOR THIS. the differences between who handed weapon and one handed weapon, and then whether or not the size difference alters the table or not. So Milage may vary

Basically. Any two handed weapon, decress the size by one costing -2 to hit, makes them a one handed weapon. Techicnally RAW. I think.

So in theory that would work to some extent for dex based style. Picking up a weapon sized for a hafling or something. Should still net you range and the properties (cause hafling's reach weapons are still reach even though they are smaller).
I think techicnally you could even two hand them (as a one handed weapon) using Dex to hit to gain the bonus to Power Attack. Nothing says you can not, and there are examples of weapons (since core) that can do this. Elven Curve blade being the most prominant one.

Its pretty weird but -2 to hit is a big cost so it is balanced enough. After all damage doesn't matter if you don't hit and -2 isn't a small amount for most of the average play's lifetime.

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Though if they're not valid, you may have to use slashing grace to get them valid for swash finesse. If you do that then you can not use them two handed for the bonus and can only use them one handed. Like Kohaku from early Inuyasha.

I don't know about those weapon's stats though so they may not work for swashbuckler's finesse or slashing grace. If so disregard everything but my opinion up top.