We were attacked by a giant evil octopus. Of course the only sensible thing to do is (not traveling by sea) to summon your own giant octopus. And what do you know, it is possible. Hmm, what's that *
'Creatures on Table: Summon Monster marked with an "*" are summoned with the celestial template, if you are good, and the fiendish template, if you are evil. If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature'
Neat, so now it's good giant octopus vs evil giant octopus. So what does it get mechanical?
'A celestial creature's CR increases by +1 only if the base creature has 5 or more HD.'
Mhm, so Mr. Octopus CR 9 with 8 HD now.
'The creature gains damage reduction and energy resistance as noted on Table: Celestial Creature Defense.'
Ah 9 HD, so it's 10 resist resist Cold, Acid, and Electricity and dr 5/evil.
'SR The creature gains spell resistance equal to its new CR +5'
Hmm, should be 14, could be 13, will probably not matter anyway.
'Special Attacks The creature may smite evil 1/day as a swift action (it adds its Cha bonus to attack rolls, and a damage bonus equal to its HD against evil foes; smite persists until the target is dead or the celestial creature rests).'
Nice, wait a minute that's one bite and eight tentacles. Nine attacks that get a bonus of +8 (or is it even +9)? And what about that cha 'bonus'? How does the attack score look like?
Melee bite +13 (1d8+5 plus poison), 8 tentacles +11 (1d4+2 plus grab)
A: +13(1d8 +13 plus poison), 8x +11(1d4 +10 plus grab)
B: +13(1d8 +13 plus poison), 8x +11(1d4 +2 plus grab)
C: +9 1d8 +13 plus poison), 8x +7(1d4 +10 plus grab)
Is it just me that this seems a bit too strong? The smite bonus lasts till the target is killed. Granted, in this case it was just 1 round. Still if I look at the reverse 'Smite good' for summons of the bad guys it'll become a matter who draws first. Or is it just because of the many attacks of the Octopus this seems like a bit of a problem?
well considering your sumons will only be arounf dor a few rounds, yes it is! sumoning is one of the strongest things in the game.
which is why the summoner class is probably the strongest class in game
in a recent mummies mask game our party was ambushed by two large undead zombie cats (idk what their actually called but our party is lvl 8) and i summoned an celestial giant scorpion well guess what he only lasts 8 rounds but that scorpion took down 1 of the cats in a single round, while our paladin took out the other in a single round
I'm not looking at the stats but it gets it's charisma mod to attacks if it's greater than 0. And it's HD to damage per attack.
Lots of attacks make strong boosters really good.
A lot of your assumptions are way off. First of all a giant octopus has 12 HD not 8. This is not changed by adding the celestial template. It increases its challenge rating not its HD. This means that most of your calculations were wrong. Its DR is 15 not 10. It also adds its HD (12) to damage, but nothing to hit because it does not have a positive CHA modifier. This puts is damage to +17 with smite.
Even with that it is not a strong as you think. It still only has 90 HP and an AC of18. Its weakest save is Will at +7. Its spell resistance is 14 which is tough but not unbeatable. Smite is only vs a single target and they only have one smite per day. Vs a single evil opponent it is pretty strong, but when it comes to multiple targets it is useless.
To summon up a giant octopus requires a sixth level spell, which means your caster has to be at least 11th level. Compared to some of the other things a 11th level character can do this is not that strong. Flesh to stone completely eliminates the creature from combat.
Ah, thank you s eems I mixed CR up with HD. +12 instead of +8 in this case, as well as the better template. So the right offense with smite is:
+13(1d8+17 +poison), 8x +11(1d4+13 plus grab)
*Special Attack constrict (tentacle, 1d4+2)- with smite 1d4+12 ?
*Does it something against DR as paladin's smite?
Let's see if I can do it right with diffrent creature, this time a villain summons a findish Dire Tiger.
CR 8 -> CR 9
hp 105 (14d8+42) -> 14 HD, AC 17; Fort +12, Ref +11, Will +5
Template Adds: Resist fire/Cold 15, DR 10/good, SR 14
Melee 2 claws +18 (2d4+8 plus grab), bite +18 (2d6+8/19–20 plus grab)
pounce, rake (2 claws +18, 2d4+8), so has +2 attacks during first attack and if it manages to grab someone. Now it uses it's smite good.
4 Claws +18 (2d4+22), bite +18 (2d6+22/19-20) initial/if grabbed
Quite a bit for the poor Bard, and still a decent threat for the Babarian I'd say. Right this time?
In general smite adds:
*HD to dmg, Cha modifire(if positive) to to hit
'It still only has 90 HP and an AC of18.' - more than my HP, and any dmg on the summon isn't dmg on my allies or myself.
'Its weakest save is Will at +7.It's spell resistance is 14 which is tough but not unbeatable.' Two rolls, one against SR, one against the save isn't too bad. Your 'flesh to stone' is on the same level, both expemd the same ressource. Just that the summon get's a full round of attack in before it's eliminated. Beside it's used against the summon and not against my allies or me. Granted, there are spells like charm monster, but even then 'rather the summon than me' applies. On that note SM6 has it's own charm monster (DC 22) if you summon a succubus.
'when it comes to multiple targets it is useless.' just as flash to stone. The smite itself helps taking out the first target, the summon exists for the rest of combat to block path, tank damage and dish out what it can.
A related question, is there any dedicated buff spell on the witch's spell list that beats summoning an Lillend Azata? +2 competence on to hit/dmg, bonus against fear effects and that's just the move action.
Tzimiscar wrote: ...
A related question, is there any dedicated buff spell on the witch's spell list that beats summoning an Lillend Azata? +2 competence on to hit/dmg, bonus against fear effects and that's just the move action.
Heroism competes fairly well. +2 on skills and all saves vs +2 to damage and saves against just fear effects.
Of course, Heroism is lower level, great for pre-buffing and they stack, so...why not both?
Snowblind wrote: Tzimiscar wrote: ...
A related question, is there any dedicated buff spell on the witch's spell list that beats summoning an Lillend Azata? +2 competence on to hit/dmg, bonus against fear effects and that's just the move action.
Heroism competes fairly well. +2 on skills and all saves vs +2 to damage and saves against just fear effects.
Of course, Heroism is lower level, great for pre-buffing and they stack, so...why not both? Of course, if possible at the time. Greater heroism is on the same lvl as SM6, but I find that the increase in effect isn't worth the higher slot in most cases, especially as the duration decreases (1 instead of 10 min/lvl). Also we're in a five character group, and I'd rather help all than just one of the team.
Far as I can see the only other buff (for others) on lvl6 is greater namend bullet, a situational spell at best of times. A few stylish escape/emergency options for yourself (Dust Form/Swarm Skin). Still, SM6 is the best buff on that lvl and arguably on the whole list. (A number of nice buffs isn't on the witch spell list, among these haste, blur, mirror immage and resist energy)
Lvl 1 Enlarge [Mage Armor for myself]
Lvl 2 Delay Poison(stop laughing, it did proove it's worth at the time) [False Life self, Iron Skin for emergencies]
Lvl 3 Heroism and/or Fly
Lvl 4 Death ward
Lvl 5 ... does Overland Flight count?
Lvl 6 . . . SM6
Don't get me wrong, I like that the SM6 is that versatile but shouldn't there be a dedicated buff on it's lvl about as strong?
Anyway the thread was about SM & Smite, was the example of a findish dire tiger correct?
Would be 8d4+ 2d6 + 110 if all attacks hit. Granted they probably won't all hit, but it can attack more than just one round.
Let's make it 3 findish dire lions with smite good attacking three diffrent heroes.
Initial attack with rake/if grabbed: 4x claws +13 (1d6+15), 1x bite +12(1d8+15+grab), else 2 claw attacks less.
(5-32 +75 =)80 - 107 dmg if all five attacks hit, a respectable (3-20+45) 48 - 65 dmg without grab/rake. Fine, even less hit, but then there are three of these. Wait six, the evil summoner just cast the spell again...
Yes, Summon Monster 6 gives you strong summoned creatures. Fiendish/Celestial template pumps them up - but the Smite is only against 1 target. In most cases it's a full round summons, not standard action & thus they appear on round 2 if you cast on round 1.
I've got a Sorcerer who's first summon spell was SM VI - that was the point where (a) the templates really boosted the creature values (Hello, Dire Tiger!) and (b) I felt I could select a summons spell based on my limited spell selection. Previous levels, I'd been looking for other spells to round out my capabilities.
Celestial Dire Tiger with Smite is:
2 Claws +18 (2d4+22) plus Grab
1 Bite +18 (2d6 +22) plus Grab
Rake: 2 Claws +18 (2d4+22)
So, yes, 8d4 + 2d6 + 110 on full hits. Compare the chance to hit against the type of Challenge Ratings you'll be facing: If your average party level is 12, then a challenging fight is CR 13 or 14 (25-38k of exp creatures). That might be 2 or 3 CR 11 Adult Black Dragons, or Cloud Giants at 13k each. That's an AC of 28 or 25, which means your +18 attacks hit 55% to 70% of the time.
One Celestial Dire Tiger should take 2-3 rounds to kill one of these CR11 threats, if it's facing them in a straight up melee full attack kind of fight. You're using a sixth level spell to neutralize 1/2 to 1/3 of the overall encounter. That's pretty reasonable.
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