Unchained Rogue
Debilitating Injury - Rogue Talent
Benefit: When the rogue deals sneak attack damage against an opponent, that opponent takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls against the rogue for 1d4 rounds.
Debilitating Injury - Unchained Rogue Class Feature
Disoriented: The target takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls. In addition, the target takes an additional –2 penalty on all attack rolls it makes against the rogue. At 10th level and 16th level, the penalty on attack rolls made against the rogue increases by –2 (to a total maximum of –8).
From Paizo Rules
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source
What do you think? Can you help me with rules, I'm not an expert on them.
Both penalties from Talent and Class Features do not list a type, so, would they stack or not?
EDIT= Both are Ex Abilities, does that count as "of the same type"?
I believe you answered your own question:
From Paizo Rules
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
You simply highlighted the wrong portion. The bonuses you are gaining from Debilitating Injury (Base Rogue Ability) and Befuddling Strike (Optional Rogue Talent) are both un-typed penalties and from different sources. I guess there is an argument that they are from the same source if you take it to mean they are both coming from the Rogue class. However, I think the designers are talking about "specific source," which would mean these two things do in fact stack.
I believe you answered your own question:
From Paizo Rules
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.You simply highlighted the wrong portion. The bonuses you are gaining from Debilitating Injury (Base Rogue Ability) and Befuddling Strike (Optional Rogue Talent) are both un-typed penalties and from different sources. I guess there is an argument that they are from the same source if you take it to mean they are both coming from the Rogue class. However, I think the designers are talking about "specific source," which would mean these two things do in fact stack.
Lol, you're right. Thanks. Yeah, I'm trying to get consensus on this.
Some people might find it unbalanced, considering it would be a -6 to attack. Checking.Ok. Question.
Befuddling Strike is NOT listen on the Unchained Rogue entry, does this means that this Talent cannot be chosen?
Do I have access too ALL rogue talents or only those described in the Unchained Rogue entry?
Yeah they would stack, but as MySelf mentions, you first have to successfully sneak attack them. And, it only affects attacks against the rogue, not against others.
*Well, debilitating injury works for others to a lesser extent but it's only a -2.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Ok. Question.
Befuddling Strike is NOT listen on the Unchained Rogue entry, does this means that this Talent cannot be chosen?
Do I have access too ALL rogue talents or only those described in the Unchained Rogue entry?
Hmm, now that you've pointed it out... I don't know, that's a good question. I don't have the actual PDF or book so I am relying on what Archive of Nethys and d20pfsrd have to say. Judging by the entries in d20pfsrd and how some things are worded, I suspect you can only select the ones in the Unchained Rogue entry. But without the actual PDF or book I can't be very certain.
Pathfinder Unchained includes "replacements for all [rogue talents] in the Core Rulebook, along with selected revised rogue talents from other sources."
As far as PFS is concerned, you can't take Befuddling Strike at all as an unchained rogue, or anything else not listed in Unchained itself: "The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24)."
For home games, however, the status of rogue talents outside of the CRB is open to interpretation. Befuddling Strike was effectively rolled into the unchained rogue's debilitating injury class feature, so I would personally rule that it's no longer available for use by unchained rogues. The same would apply to talents such as Charmer (which are now part of the Certainty unchained rogue talent) or Fast Picks (Unchained's Quick Disable combined the old Quick Disable and Fast Picks into a single talent). For other talents, it may be less clear whether they're really suitable for use by an unchained rogue.
I'm currently working on adapting the PFSRD's entire list of rogue talents for the unchained rogue (as a GM resource for home games), which will include:
- Replacements for non-CRB rogue talents that bring them in line with Unchained's revised talents.
- A full list of rogue talents that can be used without modification.
- A list of rogue talents recommended for discontinuation (i.e. that should no longer be available for use by unchained rogues).
- A revised "unchained ninja" that functions as a fully compatible archetype for the unchained rogue, as well as a list of revised ninja tricks.
And it's up! Feel free to leave a comment in the conversion thread: Unchained Rogue Talents