Increasing my kineticist's caster level

[Ravingdork]

I am looking for ways to increase my kineticist's effective caster level by +2 or +4, so that I can qualify him for the Empower Spell-Like Ability (blast) and Quicken Spell-Like Ability (blast) feats, respectively.

Anyone know any good options out there?

[Mark Seifter]

You actually need +4 or +8, respectively. The spell level can't be more than (1/2 your caster level) -2 or -4, and the spell level for a blast will always be 1/2 your caster level (except at 20th).

Incidentally, blasts have metakinesis instead of those meta-SLA. A prohibition of those meta-SLA feats for blast was left out due to the fact that we considered it impossible to get a permanent +4 or +8 CL and qualify (well, more like a combination of that and monster feats aren't usually legal to players, and every word counted for copyfitting the kineticist). Let me know if this is wrong, though.

[Janvs]

Magical Knack and an Orange Prism Ioun Stone come to mind, though I imagine you've already thought of that.

Is there something I'm missing in the language that would prevent those from working with a kineticist?

[Ravingdork]

Mark Seifter wrote:

You actually need +4 or +8, respectively. The spell level can't be more than (1/2 your caster level) -2 or -4, and the spell level for a blast will always be 1/2 your caster level (except at 20th).

Incidentally, blasts have metakinesis instead of those meta-SLA. A prohibition of those meta-SLA feats for blast was left out due to the fact that we considered it impossible to get a permanent +4 or +8 CL and qualify (well, more like a combination of that and monster feats aren't usually legal to players, and every word counted for copyfitting the kineticist). Let me know if this is wrong, though.

So it seems. Just means I will have to work harder. :)

EDIT: I'm aware of metakinesis. I'm just looking for a way to get three free uses per day without having to accept burn. Seems that even if I do find a way, it will require so much investment you may not even have to release more prevention errata.

[Mark Seifter Super Fan]

Mark Seifter wrote:

You actually need +4 or +8, respectively. The spell level can't be more than (1/2 your caster level) -2 or -4, and the spell level for a blast will always be 1/2 your caster level (except at 20th).

Incidentally, blasts have metakinesis instead of those meta-SLA. A prohibition of those meta-SLA feats for blast was left out due to the fact that we considered it impossible to get a permanent +4 or +8 CL and qualify (well, more like a combination of that and monster feats aren't usually legal to players, and every word counted for copyfitting the kineticist). Let me know if this is wrong, though.

You're so kind and smart, Marky! Always helping the illiterate in their understaning of the game's rules! ;D

[Legio_MCMLXXXVII]

It might be worth it to just see if your GM will let you buy rods of them. I know it means you can't gather while holding them, but it's not an awful tradeoff, depending on what you're doing with them at the time. A Glove of Storing might let you get around that, since it's a free action to draw and return the rod with the glove. So, gather power move action, free action draw the rod, use your blast, free action to stow the rod so you can gather again next turn. Who needs feats when they have disposable income?

[Mark Seifter]

Legio_MCMLXXXVII wrote:

It might be worth it to just see if your GM will let you buy rods of them. I know it means you can't gather while holding them, but it's not an awful tradeoff, depending on what you're doing with them at the time. A Glove of Storing might let you get around that, since it's a free action to draw and return the rod with the glove. So, gather power move action, free action draw the rod, use your blast, free action to stow the rod so you can gather again next turn. Who needs feats when they have disposable income?

That's not a bad idea. You can use the pricing of hollow rod (which is maximize) to extrapolate empower and quicken!

[Legio_MCMLXXXVII]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Legio_MCMLXXXVII wrote:

It might be worth it to just see if your GM will let you buy rods of them. I know it means you can't gather while holding them, but it's not an awful tradeoff, depending on what you're doing with them at the time. A Glove of Storing might let you get around that, since it's a free action to draw and return the rod with the glove. So, gather power move action, free action draw the rod, use your blast, free action to stow the rod so you can gather again next turn. Who needs feats when they have disposable income?

That's not a bad idea. You can use the pricing of hollow rod (which is maximize) to extrapolate empower and quicken!

Luckily, we have a pricing structure for things like this. It's the same one you clearly used when you made the Hollow Rod. It just happens to cost exactly as much as a Greater Maximize Rod would for any casting class. Which is a garbage choice by the way, since by the time you can afford it, you're not really likely to need it.

This is a fairly consistent issue with the kineticist, by the way. We get a rod to maximize our blasts three times per day! Awesome! Wait, it costs how much? Screw that, I'll just spend the money on more boosts to my constitution. We got an Extra Wild Talent Feat! Extra Class Ability feats are great! Wait, we can only take it after level six, and when we finally get it, we can't even pick good talents with it? Screw that. I'll save my feats for Things other than stuff that I could have chosen at level 2 if I wanted them.

And that's another thing. For all the "choices" we have, there aren't a lot of actual options. As an Aetherkineticist, what could possibly possess me to take Pushing Infusion at level one, when Extend Range is a choice? And even at level 3, when I still have to pick another crappy 1st level Infusion, I'm better off picking up Kinetic Blade. At least the utility talents aren't quite that bad, and I only have to take one 1st level utility talent. I like TK Finesse, but none of the choices are really terrible.

Of course, the second level list isn't anything special either. Oh, I get Bowling Infusion. That's actually a decent choice. That might even be a good pick over Kinetic Blade. Except that it's a second level talent, and I'd still have to take Kinetic Blade at some point, since there are no other real options at that level anyway. The second level list does give us TK Haul, which has the potential for hilarious shenanigans. Yay.

Third level isn't bad, we can turn invisible, and pick up touchsight. Both good options. And Foe Throw. Oh my God Foe Throw. If there's anything that redeems this class at mid levels, it's Foe Throw shenanigans, even if there aren't a lot of ways for me to boost my save DCs, and most of the things I want to throw off of things, or into things, are going to have good Fort saves. The only other thing really worth taking at that level is Extreme Range, which you can get later, I guess. Or not. It's not super critical.

4th level. TK Maneuvers. Really. That's it. The entirety of the 4th level Aetherkineticist list. Such Wow. Very Choice. It's not bad, except that your CMB isn't going to be super great, since you only get your CL and Con mod to CMB, and can't increase it at all past that point. Guess I'll be picking up Extreme Range after all. Nothing else worth taking at level 9.

Fifth level is again, not bad. I get access to Greater Touchsight, which is frankly pretty awesome. You're now largely immune to sneak attacks, and you pretty much always get to act in the surprise round. This is good, because there aren't a lot of other options to choose from at this point, although Force Barrier isn't bad either.

Sixth level. Remember all that mean stuff I said earlier? I take it back. I take it back so hard. Disintegrate, Suffocate, and Ride the Blast, all at one level? It's a good thing there's only one talent even available to an Artherkineticist at 7th, because I'm picking up both of these Infusions, and Ride the Blast. Related. The only thing faster than a Kineticist using Ride the Blast for overland travel is a Wizard casting teleport. Everyone but the Aerokineticist does a rather respectable 54mph. The Aerokineticist? He hits 108.f

From here on out, it's all much of a muchness. You get a couple cool things, but for the most part, all your really iconic abilities come to you as either 3rd or 6th level infusions. Which is actually a little bit annoying, since you're floundering up until then, and afterwards you're trying to figure out what order you need to take things in to get everything to work right. And you can't spare any slots for those less good abilities, because the feat that might let you do that is garbage.

Now that my rant is over, I need to point out that I really do like this class. It has a lot of utility. It can have some really stupid utility, depending on how generous your GM is about certain things. Part of the problem I have is that I really like this class, and it feels like it's gotten shafted, in a number of ways. And that's not cool.

[Calth]

Honestly, I have no problem with extra wild talent's restriction. Yes its not really useful before 9ish, but you shouldn't have a problem filling those feat slots. I see Extra Wild Talent as a means of picking up talent for an expanded element and using your level up wild talents on your primary element. That way you are maximizing your wild talent levels, since you don't have to waste full level slots on -2 level talents from expanded elements.

[Deadbeat Doom]

Exactly what does Caster level do for the Kineticist other than help qualify for Monster feats?

Also, to Raving Dork: you gain a +1 Caster level if you stay with only one element; though I doubt you would want to go that route.

[Gordrenn Higgler]

As for the usefulness of Extra Wild Talent, don't forget the retraining rules for feats

It may not be useful in the beginning but you can retrain it to something more powerful later based off your current level

[Ravingdork]

Deadbeat Doom wrote:

Exactly what does Caster level do for the Kineticist other than help qualify for Monster feats?

I suppose it can help you qualify for other things that require caster level as a prerequisite, such as item creation feats.

Deadbeat Doom wrote:

Also, to Raving Dork: you gain a +1 Caster level if you stay with only one element; though I doubt you would want to go that route.

I see +1 to attack and damage and DCs, but not CL. Where are you reading that?

[N. Jolly]

I actually have to agree with Legio_MCMLXXXVII here (although not quoting that monster), building sample characters I've found that kinetic blade and extended range are nearly mandatory for either 1st or 3rd level.

Although yeah, I doubt there's a dependable enough way to boost CL to use these feats, and even if there were, it's only 3 times a day, this isn't game breaking.

[Deadbeat Doom]

Ravingdork wrote:

Deadbeat Doom wrote:

Exactly what does Caster level do for the Kineticist other than help qualify for Monster feats?

I suppose it can help you qualify for other things that require caster level as a prerequisite, such as item creation feats.

Deadbeat Doom wrote:

Also, to Raving Dork: you gain a +1 Caster level if you stay with only one element; though I doubt you would want to go that route.

I see +1 to attack and damage and DCs, but not CL. Where are you reading that?

Expanded Element wrote:

At 15th level, the kineticist can either select a new element or expand her understanding of her original element. She can't select the same element she selected at 7th level unless it is her primary element. She gains all the benefits from her new expanded element as listed above. However, if the kineticist selected her primary element as her expanded element at both 7th and 15th levels, her mastery of that element increases. For wild talents of her element, the kineticist gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, as well as to caster level and DCs.

Also, Interweave Composite Blast states that the blast uses the average Caster level of the two Kineticists to come up with the caster level of the blast, which in turn determines the number of dice used for damage.

I read that to mean that a +1 caster level would allow a Kineticist to have more dice than usual for their blast; mine goes to 11!

[Tels]

Deadbeat Doom wrote:

Interweave Composite Blast

Wait... my feat idea made it into the book? Frickin' sweet!

[Onyxlion]

Hm this is a good question. How close are spell-likes to spells that relate to feats? Going to delve further in to this.

My 1st thought in relation to boosting caster level is to abuse the Coven hex since it's the most potent caster level boost to stack. This has also been made extremely easy with the addition of VMC - witch.