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So I am GMing a 5-9 tier scenario soon with subtiers 5-6 and 8-9. It is looking like the table will have 7 players at it with their levels as follows:
Paladin 5
Paladin 7
Fighter 6
Fighter 6
Cleric 7
Rogue 7
Ranger 7
Their APL is 6.4, which means it rounds to 6.
Technically, they are supposed to play tier 5-6 (only .1 APL away from being able to play tier 8-9), but I am afraid that it is going to be way too easy (making it more boring and not challenging) being that they have 7 players (larger table size than the scenario is supposed to have) and over half their players are above the low tier level. But I am also afraid that tier 8-9 with the four player adjustment might be too difficult (considering none of the players have levels inside the tier), although they might be ok just because of sheer numbers AND all the players at the table are experienced players. No one else is willing to GM as well to split the group into two.
Suggestions? What would you do as other GMs in this situation?
Well, I could give you the advice "Don't run 7 people", but that doesn't really help you.
How comfortable do you feel with fudging numbers on the fly? In this scenario, I would suggest running the lower tier and just subtly jacking up all the numbers a bit. If your players are doing tons of damage, add some HP. If they're hitting your guys when they're rolling 5s, add some AC. Just crank it up a little, using your own discretion.
On the other hand, do the opposite. Run the high tier and play the opponents like they're all mindless, coming strait on at the party with no strategy. An easier, if somewhat riskier route. But you say your players are experienced, so if they know what they're doing then they should be able to handle enemies that are stronger then they are as long as they don't fight intelligently.
Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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Since the ideal resolution of getting someone else to GM and split the table to not run a 7 person table is not in the cards and it appears you are ok with running a table of seven (better than sending someone home or asking someone to step out), here are some options.
I do like TetsujinOni's idea of ramping up the role play time.
Add terrain or environmental conditions to the sceario as every day does not provide perfect weather. In accordance with the Guide page 34, this is perfectly legal if the flavor is written to into the scenario but not the mechanics.
Good luck and hope this helps.
Flagging for move to Pathfinder Society General Discussion.
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The season 7 "Roleplaying Guild Guide" (the new name for the Guide to Organized Play), available for free from Paizo, discusses what to do in this scenario on page 33. I hope this helps.
Determining Subtiers
In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group
of PCs must play in, calculate the group’s average party
level (APL). Divide the total number of character levels by
the number of characters in the party. You should always
round to the nearest whole number. If you are exactly at
0.5, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play.
Starting with Season 4, scenarios are designed for six
characters and contain instructions on how to adjust the
scenario for four-character parties. When the APL of a table
is between two subtiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario),
a party of four characters must play the lower tier without
any adjustments for party size. A party of five to seven
characters whose APL is between two subtiers must play
the higher tier with the four-character adjustment.
For scenarios written in Seasons 0 to 3, when the APL is
in between subtiers, a party of six or seven characters must
play the higher subtier. Parties with four or five characters
must play the lower subtier. In the fringe case where there
are no players that are high enough to have reached the
subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters),
the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier.
Legal Table Size
The minimum table size for a Pathfinder Society
Organized Play session to be considered legal is four
PCs. Table size is capped at six PCs. In cases in which
you simply cannot seat four players, you may run a table
of three players, and play an official level-appropriate
pregenerated character in order to meet the minimum
table size of four PCs.
Conversely, if seven players show up to an event,
rather than turning someone away from the campaign
altogether, consider adding a seventh person to the table.
These situations should be extremely rare and should only
be used as a last resort to sending someone home without
the chance to play. Seven-person tables often overpower
otherwise challenging adventures and limit the amount
of time each player gets to shine in the given scenario, and
many players prefer not to play at all rather than play at
such a large table. Check with the players to determine
their preferences before running a seven-person table.
One alternative to a seven-person table is to split the
group into two tables of three players, and ask one of the
players to serve as GM for the second table, with each GM
running a pregenerated character to fill her table out.
Tables should never have eight or more players.
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The season 7 "Roleplaying Guild Guide" (the new name for the Guide to Organized Play), available for free from Paizo, discusses what to do in this scenario on page 33. I hope this helps.
Determining Subtiers
In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group
of PCs must play in, calculate the group’s average party
level (APL). Divide the total number of character levels by
the number of characters in the party. You should always
round to the nearest whole number. If you are exactly at
0.5, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play.Starting with Season 4, scenarios are designed for six
characters and contain instructions on how to adjust the
scenario for four-character parties. When the APL of a table
is between two subtiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario),
a party of four characters must play the lower tier without
any adjustments for party size. A party of five to seven
characters whose APL is between two subtiers must play
the higher tier with the four-character adjustment.For scenarios written in Seasons 0 to 3, when the APL is
in between subtiers, a party of six or seven characters must
play the higher subtier. Parties with four or five characters
must play the lower subtier. In the fringe case where there
are no players that are high enough to have reached the
subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters),
the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier.Legal Table Size
The minimum table size for a Pathfinder Society
Organized Play session to be considered legal is four
PCs. Table size is capped at six PCs. In cases in which
you simply cannot seat four players, you may run a table
of three players, and play an official level-appropriate
pregenerated character in order to meet the minimum
table size of four PCs.Conversely, if seven players show up to an event,
rather than turning someone away from the campaign
altogether, consider adding a seventh person to the table.
These situations should be extremely rare and...
I already read this multiple times before posting this thread but it still doesn't solve my problem. "Technically" according to the rules they have to play tier 5-6, but I know with 7 experienced players (more than half of which are above the subtier) they are going to steamroll through it and it will not be enjoyable for anyone. They are so close to being able to play the high subtier with the 4 person adjustment (only .1 APL away), yet I feel even then, it might be a little too challenging for them.
I posted this also in the Pathfinder Society facebook page and one player suggested that I convince the Level 5 Paladin to play a Level 7 pregen, boosting the APL enought to play high tier with 4 person adjustment. I hate to force someone to play a character that's not their own and prefer to come up with an alternate solution (although this might be my only option).
Another idea would be to just boot someone from the table, but I don't want to send anyone home because I want everyone to have a good time.
No other player is willing to GM, otherwise I would split the table into two tables of 3 players each and have each GM run a pregen to fill the tables out.
Someone else suggested that I put them through the higher tier anyway and just fudge rolls and modify tactics where needed, depending on how the adventure is going. I like this option best, but once again I am afraid that the level 5 (and even two level 6s) will feel as if they can't contribute as much to the combats and roleplay, and by feeling "underpowered" will not have a good time (although many would say that is just tough love). But then again, putting them in high tier (even though their APL is only .1 away) wouldn't technically be "legal"
Most likely, I will talk to see if the Paladin wants to play a pregen. If not, I will ask the group if they want to play high tier and just chalk up the fact that the paladin might not have as good a time to "well i warned you and gave you another option"
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Ever thought of maximizing HP for the lower tier? Or applying the Advanced simple template to everything?
That is another very good option which I have incorporated into home games. Can I legally do that in Pathfinder Society Scenarios? Thought if you run the scenario you are technically not allowed to change the monsters.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Ever thought of maximizing HP for the lower tier? Or applying the Advanced simple template to everything?That is another very good option which I have incorporated into home games. Can I legally do that in Pathfinder Society Scenarios? Thought if you run the scenario you are technically not allowed to change the monsters.
Follow the rules in the guide. Either convince one of your players to play a level 7 pregen, or run it in low tier.
7 player groups are supposed to be extremely rare, it sucks, but either play low tier or convince a player to bring a higher level character.
Or, if you have the time, split the table and offer the scenario for the other 3-4 players at another time.
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It really worries me that there are so many suggestion to change stats by people when playing pfs. You cannot do that according to the rules.
Maybe just maybe someone who is playing that cake walk at low teir will someday step up and gm. 8 players at 2 tables is the solution. Three players and a pregen will be loads more fun.
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If they all want to play the table of seven then it will be a cake walk. Even with a table of five optimised PCs in the same APL quagmire would cakewalk it. Happens at my tables on a regular basis.
As experienced players they need to deal with that fact or one of them steps up to GM. If they don't want to GM this one cold, suggest running an evergreen with the table the gets bumped and then arrange for that scenario to run a second time, preferably by one of those that got to play it the first go around.
As the GM it is your call and not theirs to seat seven players. As experienced players it's their role to understand the realities of the situation. And please don't ever, under any circcmstance, rewrite the scenario to suit the table. That is not what PFS is about, runs contrary to the guide and intent of the organised play program. This kind of stuff gives Venture Captains migraines.
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if they are experienced then they know they will face melt it ..... tell them before hand " I have to run this X,Y,Z and I know you will all steamroll and it might not be fun. If someone wants to GM we can split the tables and have it be more interesting. Other wise let's all meet up at the bar afterward with the hour or two we saved. " I have had this exact discussion a couple times at our game. We usually end up at the local taproom :)
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I think this needs to be looked at again:
Conversely, if seven players show up to an event,
rather than turning someone away from the campaign
altogether, consider adding a seventh person to the table.
These situations should be extremely rare and should only
be used as a last resort to sending someone home without
the chance to play. Seven-person tables often overpower
otherwise challenging adventures and limit the amount
of time each player gets to shine in the given scenario, and
many players prefer not to play at all rather than play at
such a large table. Check with the players to determine
their preferences before running a seven-person table.
The way I read this, seven player tables are only supposed to happen if people show up unexpected. It's not something you plan to happen.
It can be awkward to enforce of course, but it is something you should point out too your players.
Another thing: if one of the fighters is willing to switch to a L7 pregen, you APL would be 6.57, which also rounds up to high tier 4-player.
I think it's quite fair to put it to the players: "you guys could stomp through the low tier, or one of you three over there could cherry-pick a pregen and you're all going to have an exciting afternoon with the high-tier rewards at the end".
If you do that though, make sure you've read through the adventure so that you know if that's a sane plan. Some adventures, you're better off slumming it because the 4-player adjustment is totally insufficient. I think that's especially common in season 4.
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For all the advice of "don't run a 7 player table", I'll tell you what they aren't. 7 player tables happen. I've run tons of them because there wasn't another option. In this case .. if one of the other players steps up to run a 2nd table; you'll have a table of 4 and a table of 2 do you'd need someone outside the group to come in and run a table.
In this case, you have to follow the guide, and the paladin has to play his paladin as he has a character of the appropriate level. He actually cannot play a pregen.
Play the lower tier
Acknowledge to the players that because it's lower tier and a 7 player table that it's going to be easier, but according to PFS rules you cannot change the difficulty of the scenario.
Sit back .. have fun and have a good game.
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For all the advice of "don't run a 7 player table", I'll tell you what they aren't. 7 player tables happen. I've run tons of them because there wasn't another option. In this case .. if one of the other players steps up to run a 2nd table; you'll have a table of 4 and a table of 2 do you'd need someone outside the group to come in and run a table.
In this case, you have to follow the guide, and the paladin has to play his paladin as he has a character of the appropriate level. He actually cannot play a pregen.
Play the lower tier
Acknowledge to the players that because it's lower tier and a 7 player table that it's going to be easier, but according to PFS rules you cannot change the difficulty of the scenario.
Sit back .. have fun and have a good game.
Sorry but that is not correct. You can play a pregen, however, you are not allowed to apply the chronicle to a character which is in the right tier.
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From the guide:
" If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated
character, you choose one of your characters to assign
the chronicle to at the end of adventure, and then apply
the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the
level of the pregenerated character played. You may not
assign a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated
character to a character that was already at the level
of the pregenerated character or higher."
So the Pala is only level 5, there is nothing against playing a Level 7 pregen.
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From the guide:
" If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated
character, you choose one of your characters to assign
the chronicle to at the end of adventure, and then apply
the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the
level of the pregenerated character played. You may not
assign a Chronicle sheet earned with a pregenerated
character to a character that was already at the level
of the pregenerated character or higher."
So the Pala is only level 5, there is nothing against playing a Level 7 pregen.
Thanks.. I must have had an older version of the rule in my head still.
That said, I wouldn't require the paladin to play a pregen. Let him play his character and deal with the lower tier.
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You are welcome.
To be honest, I did the ruling same as you for a long time until a player pointed out to me that I was wrong.
It was more or less the same situation and I let the group choose what to do. They opted for the pregen and played high tier, had a lot of fun and the pregen player could asign the chronicle five session later when his char reached level 7.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Cakewalks happen. Just like TPKs happen.
Let them enjoy it. (And hope the scenario doesn't involve anything that needs an arcane caster to bypass...)
And take advantage of short easy combats to play up the roleplay, something that often gets cut short in PFS when combats run long.
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Another approach, depending on your group, is to concentrate on the story and RP aspects of the scenario, since the combats will likely be over quickly. We often feel we have to skip some of that to finish on time, but here's a chance to really let your PCs develop their characters and interact with the NPCs. (Of course, if you or they are not into that, don't force it.)
Seriously, TsetsujinOni has the right solution: run two tables. You should never be allowing sign-ups to reach 7, since it's supposed to be an "oh, this new person just showed up and wants to play" kind of thing. But given that you have them, get someone else to run the same scenario as well. Or ask one of the seven to consider GMing instead of playing. Then yo have 2 GMs with 3 players each, and a pregen each. This will be a much better game for everyone all-around.
If this is the first time you're hitting that 7-player threshold, then recruiting GMs becomes even more important. Growth can happen quickly as the word gets out, and you're going to get 9 players the next time.
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I am confused. How does one low player playing level 7 pregen equal a teir 8-9. The median of the teirs is level 7 not 6.5 therefore all lower players would have to play level 7 pregens not just one. If the example had be a teir 1-2, teir 3-4, and a teir 6-7 then the median between teir 1-2 n 3-4 would be 2.5. Am I missing something here?
6.5 rounds up to 7.
There is no "between tier" with 1-2 and 3-4 subtiers.
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For all the advice of "don't run a 7 player table", I'll tell you what they aren't. 7 player tables happen. I've run tons of them because there wasn't another option. In this case .. if one of the other players steps up to run a 2nd table; you'll have a table of 4 and a table of 2 do you'd need someone outside the group to come in and run a table.
I'm wondering, how does a table of seven + GM break down to tables of four and two if one of the players steps up? That seems very short sighted when one can just as easily split it to two tables that have three and a pregen.
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For all the advice of "don't run a 7 player table", I'll tell you what they aren't. 7 player tables happen. I've run tons of them because there wasn't another option. In this case .. if one of the other players steps up to run a 2nd table; you'll have a table of 4 and a table of 2 do you'd need someone outside the group to come in and run a table.
I'm wondering, how does a table of seven + GM break down to tables of four and two if one of the players steps up? That seems very short sighted when one can just as easily split it to two tables that have three and a pregen.
That could work as well ... in my still sleep fuddled brain I was going with keeping a full table of 4 ...
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I am confused. How does one low player playing level 7 pregen equal a teir 8-9. The median of the teirs is level 7 not 6.5 therefore all lower players would have to play level 7 pregens not just one. If the example had be a teir 1-2, teir 3-4, and a teir 6-7 then the median between teir 1-2 n 3-4 would be 2.5. Am I missing something here?6.5 rounds up to 7.
There is no "between tier" with 1-2 and 3-4 subtiers.
Okay but I understand it you aren't suppose to round up when determine APL. If the median is 7 then the group must have an APL of 7, because a level 5 character is very ineffective vs the CR of the encounters in a teir 8-9.
Well according to what is being said an APL of 2.5 could play in a teir 3-4 especially if a APL of 6.5 could play in a teir 8-9. Could someone clarify what is being said.
If you end at x.5 APL, the table decides whether you round up or round down. If it's 6.5, then the APL could either be 6 or 7 depending on how the table wanted to play. If it's 6, then you play down with no adjustment. If it's 7, then you play up with the 4 player adjustment.
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That could work as well ... in my still sleep fuddled brain I was going with keeping a full table of 4 ...For all the advice of "don't run a 7 player table", I'll tell you what they aren't. 7 player tables happen. I've run tons of them because there wasn't another option. In this case .. if one of the other players steps up to run a 2nd table; you'll have a table of 4 and a table of 2 do you'd need someone outside the group to come in and run a table.
I'm wondering, how does a table of seven + GM break down to tables of four and two if one of the players steps up? That seems very short sighted when one can just as easily split it to two tables that have three and a pregen.
No worries, just wasn't sure if there was a reason for it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I am confused. How does one low player playing level 7 pregen equal a teir 8-9. The median of the teirs is level 7 not 6.5 therefore all lower players would have to play level 7 pregens not just one. If the example had be a teir 1-2, teir 3-4, and a teir 6-7 then the median between teir 1-2 n 3-4 would be 2.5. Am I missing something here?
I'll go through it step by step, to show how it works. I'm using the case where one of the 6th-level fighters picks up a level 7 pregen.
1) Add up all levels (5 + 6 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 = 46)
2) Divide by number of players (46 / 7 = 6.57)
3) Round to nearest whole number ( = 7 )
3a) If the number from step 2 is exactly in between (.5) then the players decide which way to round.
4) If this number is in a subtier, play that subtier, with 4-player adjustment if appropriate. Else go to step 5.
5) If you're between tiers, it depends on what season the adventure is from. If it's from S0-3 it has no 4-player adjustment. A party of 3-5 players must play down, 6-7 players must play up. If it's from S4+ it has 4-player adjustment, so a party of 5-7 plays up with 4-player adjustment. A party of 3-4 plays down on 6-player mode.
5a) If you're between tiers and nobody's in the high tier, the players may opt to play down instead, with no 4-player difficulty.
Step 5a is rather rare. Step 3 choices happen more often in smaller parties because the more PCs, the harder it gets to end at .5 fractions.
I think you got confused because you forgot to round to the nearest whole number in step 3 before looking at tier.
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For all the advice of "don't run a 7 player table", I'll tell you what they aren't. 7 player tables happen. I've run tons of them because there wasn't another option. In this case .. if one of the other players steps up to run a 2nd table; you'll have a table of 4 and a table of 2 do you'd need someone outside the group to come in and run a table.
No, 1 gm + 7 players = 2 gms + 6 players.
So, 2 legal tables with each gm controlling a pregen.
A perfectly legal and much more fun solution for everyone.
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For all the advice of "don't run a 7 player table", I'll tell you what they aren't. 7 player tables happen. I've run tons of them because there wasn't another option. In this case .. if one of the other players steps up to run a 2nd table; you'll have a table of 4 and a table of 2 do you'd need someone outside the group to come in and run a table.
No, 1 gm + 7 players = 2 gms + 6 players.
So, 2 legal tables with each gm controlling a pregen.
A perfectly legal and much more fun solution for everyone.
I think Thea had a "needs more caffeine" moment with her post, there.
Or maybe some purple sparkly bunnies....
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For all the advice of "don't run a 7 player table", I'll tell you what they aren't. 7 player tables happen. I've run tons of them because there wasn't another option. In this case .. if one of the other players steps up to run a 2nd table; you'll have a table of 4 and a table of 2 do you'd need someone outside the group to come in and run a table.
No, 1 gm + 7 players = 2 gms + 6 players.
So, 2 legal tables with each gm controlling a pregen.
A perfectly legal and much more fun solution for everyone.
I think Thea had a "needs more caffeine" moment with her post, there.
Or maybe some purple sparkly bunnies....
Pretty much. I'd been up for about 20 minutes... aside from the table number,mixup ... the advice still stands
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Thank you everyone for the advice!
I ran this at a local game store and they allowed 7 people to sign up for my event. Turns out that they had a 3-7 tier running in the room next to us that was short players so the level 5 played with them. Also, turns out the Level 7 Rogue and Level 7 Cleric each had level 8 and 9 characters and switched to those. So we ended up playing 8-9 tier and everyone had a great time!