Does Sharing Space = Adjacent

[Driver_325yards]

Are allies, who share your space, adjacent to you for the purposes of abilities that grant bonuses for the number adjacent allies?

[claudekennilol]

Driver_325yards wrote:

Are allies, who share your space, adjacent to you for the purposes of abilities that grant bonuses for the number adjacent allies?

Yes, you may not be in adjacent squares, but you are most definitely adjacent as defined by the dictionary--and paizo didn't redefine it as a special game term so you are adjacent.

[Gisher]

Driver_325yards wrote:

Are allies, who share your space, adjacent to you for the purposes of abilities that grant bonuses for the number adjacent allies?

Opponents in your square certainly count as being adjacent since they would be within 5' of you.

Core Rulebook Glossary wrote:

Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).

Emphasis added.

I would assume that the same rules would apply for allies.

[Grey_Mage]

Yes, otherwise it would make being adjacent to tiny familiars very difficult. Since they can share your square they qualify as adjacent (i.e within 5 feet).

The rules simply make the most sense this way but Gishers quote on melee attacks is the closest thing you'll get to specific RAW.

[bbangerter]

Can you provide a context for why you are asking?

In general, yes, you would be adjacent, but there may be some contexts where that doesn't make sense - similar to how in general you count as your own ally, but some contexts make being your own ally not make sense for purposes of certain abilities.

[BigNorseWolf]

Gisher wrote:

Driver_325yards wrote:

Are allies, who share your space, adjacent to you for the purposes of abilities that grant bonuses for the number adjacent allies?

Opponents in your square certainly count as being adjacent since they would be within 5' of you.

Core Rulebook Glossary wrote:

Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).

Emphasis added.

I would assume that the same rules would apply for allies.

Thats.. handy. Opens a lot of options for my "death from inside your square" fox shape fighter.

[Driver_325yards]

bbangerter wrote:

Can you provide a context for why you are asking?

In general, yes, you would be adjacent, but there may be some contexts where that doesn't make sense - similar to how in general you count as your own ally, but some contexts make being your own ally not make sense for purposes of certain abilities.

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I really had nothing specifically in mind. I just see these adjacent abilities all of the time and wondered about things like familiars, mounted characters, etc...

[Gisher]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Driver_325yards wrote:

Are allies, who share your space, adjacent to you for the purposes of abilities that grant bonuses for the number adjacent allies?

Opponents in your square certainly count as being adjacent since they would be within 5' of you.

Core Rulebook Glossary wrote:

Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).

Emphasis added.

I would assume that the same rules would apply for allies.

Thats.. handy. Opens a lot of options for my "death from inside your square" fox shape fighter.

Is this build something like a fox version of the Songbird of Doom?

[Gisher]

Driver_325yards wrote:

bbangerter wrote:

Can you provide a context for why you are asking?

In general, yes, you would be adjacent, but there may be some contexts where that doesn't make sense - similar to how in general you count as your own ally, but some contexts make being your own ally not make sense for purposes of certain abilities.

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I really had nothing specifically in mind. I just see these adjacent abilities all of the time and wondered about things like familiars, mounted characters, etc...

I'm often the same way. I sometimes just want to know how a rule works even if I can't see any practical applications.

[Byakko]

Everyone always loves to give the "(Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.)" quote, HOWEVER, this quote only applies with regards to striking foes with a melee weapon.

For other purposes, such as meeting the conditions of feats or abilities, the term "adjacent" is undefined.

While you may be tempted to apply the above definition to other cases, it has been shown to cause problems and bizarre situations if you attempt to apply it globally.
(some may dispute this, but it has been discussed at length in other threads)

In the end, you can and will see table variation concerning whether your own space counts as an adjacent space.

[Grrr De'Bonaire]

Gisher wrote:

Is this build something like a fox version of the Songbird of Doom?

Eyup!

[The Morphling]

The best way to explain adjacent is with two rules:

1.) Anything within 5 ft. is adjacent.

2.) Nothing can be adjacent to itself.

That closes any loopholes that exist. For instance, you're adjacent to a familiar sharing your square, an ally standing in the square next to you, and an enemy hovering just above your head. The square you're in is adjacent to each of the squares next to it.

If an effect cares about whether an enemy is "adjacent," it works if the enemy is in your square. If the effect cares whether the enemy is in an "adjacent square," then it wouldn't work if they were in your square, because they're not in a square adjacent to yours, they're in your square.

[Byakko]

The Morphling wrote:

The best way to explain adjacent is with two rules:

1.) Anything within 5 ft. is adjacent.

2.) Nothing can be adjacent to itself.

That closes any loopholes that exist. For instance, you're adjacent to a familiar sharing your square, an ally standing in the square next to you, and an enemy hovering just above your head. The square you're in is adjacent to each of the squares next to it.

If an effect cares about whether an enemy is "adjacent," it works if the enemy is in your square. If the effect cares whether the enemy is in an "adjacent square," then it wouldn't work if they were in your square, because they're not in a square adjacent to yours, they're in your square.

I agree this is a pretty good definition (although not spelled out specifically in the rules).

The question is whether the "Anything" in 1.) is the creature or the square itself.
Sometimes it's obvious whether they're referring to adjacent creatures vice squares, and sometimes... it's not.

i.e.:

1) Anything within 5 ft of a creature is adjacent.
2) A creature can not be adjacent to itself.

OR:

1) Anything within 5ft of a square is adjacent.
2) A square is not adjacent to itself.

[Vuliperre Reignhart]

Fox buddies, Grr? :D

I actually have a ring of seven lovely colours (the ring the songbird of doom uses) in case I ever run into any situations where I need to fly to reach stuff.

It doesn't actually grant any additional bonuses over fox shape, other than fly. (I think the songbird of doom build got the stat boosts from it incorrect, if I remember right.)

[Grrr De'Bonaire]

Vuliperre Reignhart wrote:

Fox buddies, Grr? :D

I actually have a ring of seven lovely colours (the ring the songbird of doom uses) in case I ever run into any situations where I need to fly to reach stuff.

It doesn't actually grant any additional bonuses over fox shape, other than fly. (I think the songbird of doom build got the stat boosts from it incorrect, if I remember right.)

*Growl growl growl yip*

Usually i just hop onto the fighter, who doesn't have a ranged weapon anyway, and he throws me at them

[blackbloodtroll]

If somebody starts talking about yiffing, it's gonna get ugly in here.

[Vinedragon]

As an odd thing to point out, the Swarm Fighter archetype's 13th level ability seems to assume that you wouldn't normally count as being adjacent for the purposes of step up while in their square.

[Vuliperre Reignhart]

Kobolds of Golarion wrote:

Always Underfoot (Ex): At 13th level, the swarm fighter gains Step Up as a bonus feat. A creature sharing a square with the swarm fighter is considered adjacent for the purposes of this feat.

I think that's just clarifying, so there's not confusion with regards to that ability. Probably due to the fact that most of the time creatures can't share squares.

Also, Grr, we gotta get you one of those rings that lets you talk while you're a fox. It's really quite amusing watching a baddie's face pale when the fox at his feat asks "Hey, 'sup?".