Hi! I find it weird and annoying that the best strategy for multi-limb monsters with the grab ability seems to be to drop their grabbed target and full-attack each round. I'm contemplating the following house rule, but I'm not sure if it would make such creatures too deadly.
When using a full attack action using multiple limbs, bites etc. (i.e. not iterative attacks), a creature can opt to maintain a grapple in addition to making attacks by foregoing the attacks associated with the limbs being used to maintain the grapple.
A regular grapple normally uses two limbs (unless the creature only has one relevant limb, such as a crocodile that grabs things with its mouth). A creature with the grab ability on two or more attacks can choose to use only one limb if they opt to take a -20 penalty on their CMB checks to make and maintain the grapple, as normal. It can choose to switch between one or two limbs at the start of its turn for a given round before making any attacks or rolling to maintain the grapple, losing or gaining the grappled condition itself and gaining or losing the -20 penalty.
A single creature cannot be grappled/constricted with additional limbs beyond two.
So, an octopus that successfully attacks and makes its CMB check to grab a creature can choose to wrap it in two of its tentacles (gaining the grappled condition itself), leaving the other six tentacles free. Assuming the victim doesn't manage to escape in its turn, in the octopus' next turn it can full-attack, rolling to maintain the grapple (occupying two tentacles) with the +5 bonus for controlling the grapple and also making regular attacks with its beak and the remaining six tentacles.
Alternatively, at the start after hitting with a tentacle the octopus can decide to wrap the victim up in only one tentacle by taking -20 on its grapple check. Assuming it still succeeds, the victim gains the grappled condition but the octopus doesn't. If the victim doesn't break free before the octopus' next turn, the octopus can full attack with its beak and seven tentacles, plus roll to maintain the grapple (with +5 for controlling the grapple and the -20 penalty) using the eighth tentacle.
As long as it continues to full-attack the octopus could end up grappling multiple opponents with its tentacles... up to four without penalties or eight if it was taking -20 an all of them.
Given the +5 bonus the creature in charge of a grapple gains to maintain the grapple, a common tactic for a creature with grab and a high CMB would be to grab with two limbs initially, but then choose to drop down to one limb on its next turn and start using the freed limb to attack, losing the grappled condition on itself and using the +5 bonus for being in charge to partially offset the -20 for using only one limb.
Thoughts?
I assume your example uses a giant octopus, right? Since the normal variety only gets one "Tentacles" attack (one attack, all tentacles used).
If you do this, you'll very likely have TPKs when you use giant octopuses against a CR appropriate group. It could quite literally grab all or most of them and drag them into deep water to drown them. Grappled spellcasters don't escape very well and don't cast very well, and grappled fighters don't fight very well (can't fight with any TWF or 2H attacks and who really fights with just a single 1H weapon anymore?). Even PCs built for CMB are usually not built as well as monsters are built for it.
Could be really bad.
Me, I'm OK just leaving it like it is. However, if you like the idea of these multiple grapples (I assume you do or you wouldn't have made this topic), then I suggest automatically bumping up the CR of any creature who can benefit from this by +1 or +2 (depending on how many total grapples it's likely to make).
I wouldn't drop the -20 unless all limbs were being used on the same opponent. I could see the case for throwing the +5 in there, but I would have that bring it to a total of -15. Maintaining multiple opponents without penalty is too much, as DM_Blake suggests.
Perhaps you could split it up and say that the giant octopus would be at -20 for using one tentacle, and +5 for each additional tentacle, with no bonus past the 5th one. This would allow for a situation with 2 opponents being held by 4 tentacles each but to hold 3 or 4 would require penalties. Boosting the CR by +1 may be appropriate.
We actually discussed this not too long ago in this thread but concluded that addressing the "weird and annoying" tactic would be against the rules. Since this homebrew, we don't have to worry about that anymore though. :D
Being built around grappling is enough of an advantage without making it stronger. And unless you allow custom races or monster races, it's only going to help the bad guys.
Thanks for your thoughts, everyone!
Yes, I meant a giant octopus rather than the small regular one. I'm not actually planning on throwing a giant octopus at any players any time soon, I was just using it as an example of a creature that had a lot of limbs that could be used to grab.
Upping the CR of a monster that could benefit from the house rule seems like the logical way to balance the change - since it increases the risk, it increases the XP reward, and modifies the encounter design.
@DM_Blake, I'm not specifically going for multiple grapples - I was mainly going for the grappling creature using other natural attacks in conjunction with grappling someone as an alternative to "drop them and full-attack each round, potentially grabbing them again". An owlbear grabs someone one round... the next round, it maintains the grapple and also tears into them with its beak. A Marilith wraps someone up in its tail and then goes to town with its blades.
@Philo Pharynx, no custom races or monster races for my PCs, so yes, it's only going to help the bad guys.
@Cuuniyevo, I like the idea that the -20 is not binary. I might adjust the house rule to be specifically about the Grab ability:
A creature which has multiple attacks (not iterative attacks) with the grab ability may opt to use a full attack action while still rolling to maintain the grapple by foregoing the attacks being used to maintain the grapple. More than one grapple can thus be maintained if the attacker has enough grab attacks.
On the creature's turn each round when the full attack is declared, it must declare how many attacks will be dedicated to maintaining grapples, and make the check(s) to maintain grapple(s) before making any attacks. Dedicating a single grab attack to maintain a particular grapple while full-attacking incurs a -20 penalty on the CMB checks to maintain that grapple. For each additional grab attack dedicated to the grapple, reduce this penalty by 5; there is no benefit to devoting more than four limbs/attacks to grappling a single creature while full-attacking. Whether the grapple is successfully maintained or not, the attacks dedicated to grappling that round are not available to make attack rolls.
If a creature dedicates only a single grab attack to grappling in a round, it does not gain the grappled condition itself. If more than one grab attack is used to grapple (whether on the same or different opponents), the attacker gains the grappled condition.
A creature that successfully maintains a grapple while using a full attack may not choose the option to move half its distance dragging the grappled creature(s) with it.
If the creature with multiple grab attacks also has the constrict ability, the damage inflicted is the same no matter how many attacks/limbs are dedicated to the grapple.
So, an owlbear that grabs someone has the options of maintaining the grapple as a standard action as normal, full-attacking and taking a -15 penalty on CMB to use its beak, or full-attacking and taking a -20 penalty on CMB to use its beak and one claw (and not gain the grappled condition itself).
A crocodile that grabs someone can opt to full-attack with a -20 penalty to CMB in order to also tail-slap someone (and not gain the grappled condition itself).
The giant octopus can dedicate up to four tentacles to each grapple, potentially grappling two opponents without penalty, but it couldn't drag them into deep water as long as it continued to full-attack instead of maintaining the grapple as a standard action.
I'm thinking of adding "Extra Limbs" to my Leveled Mutants topic.
It just makes sense that they are grappled when all their "arms" are involved in the grapple. Some species of ape can use their legs in the grapple, so no 5 foot step while doing that.
There is a high level spell that allows 2 characters to merge getting double the normal functioning arms. The crystal gems can do this in Steven Universe.
I'll reread the grapple rules, but I can't see how extra arms should not add a bonus to grappling. I'll reread the Black Tentacles spell to see if using the spell on oneself doesn't add to grapples.
.... I'll reread the Black Tentacles spell to see if using the spell on oneself doesn't add to grapples.
???
Apparently basic arithmetic is beyond me, because of course it would take five grab attacks to completely offset the -20 penalty (-20 for one, -15 for two, -10 for three, -5 for four and no penalty for five). So adjust the text of the house rule to say "there is no benefit to devoting more than five limbs/attacks to grappling a single creature while full-attacking". The giant octopus using all its tentacles could grapple two creatures with a -5 penalty on each check, or one with no penalty and the other with a -10 penalty.
Thinking about this house rule a bit more, I think it might even make multi-limbed grab enemies less annoying. Your typical grab-focussed monster generally has a pretty overwhelming CMB against level-appropriate PCs, and RAW there's very little incentive for them to take the -20 penalty for grabbing with just one limb. With this house rule, the monster can potentially inflict more damage while grappling, but the GM is going to be strongly tempted to take some penalties to get more attacks, settling on a bonus that they're likely to make rather than one that only fails on a natural 1.
.... I'll reread the Black Tentacles spell to see if using the spell on oneself doesn't add to grapples.???
The current version of the spell doesn't do that. I was thinking of a different version or spell.
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How about this. New creature ability.
As a full-round action, a creature with multiple natural attacks and the Grab ability may maintain as many grapples with smaller creatures as it likes while also making a full attack. For each grapple CMB check it chooses to make, it must dedicate one natural attack, and cannot use that natural attack during it's full attack routine. Each grapple check takes a cumulative -5 penalty to it's CMB check. The full-attack sequence takes a flat (non-cumulative) -5 penalty. Attacks and grapple CMB checks may be made in any order on the creature's turn. This is an extraordinary ability.
Should honestly be called "Multi-Grab" but I like my name better. CR +25%?
How about this. New creature ability.
As a full-round action, a creature with multiple natural attacks and the Grab ability may maintain as many grapples with smaller creatures as it likes while also making a full attack. For each grapple CMB check it chooses to make, it must dedicate one natural attack, and cannot use that natural attack during it's full attack routine. Each grapple check takes a cumulative -5 penalty to it's CMB check. The full-attack sequence takes a flat (non-cumulative) -5 penalty. Attacks and grapple CMB checks may be made in any order on the creature's turn. This is an extraordinary ability.Should honestly be called "Multi-Grab" but I like my name better. CR +25%?
Can I steal this for multi armed mutants? Should I give them grab at 5th level and Octopus of Death at 10th level?
Go to Leveled Mutations.
How about this. New creature ability.
As a full-round action, a creature with multiple natural attacks and the Grab ability may maintain as many grapples with smaller creatures as it likes while also making a full attack. For each grapple CMB check it chooses to make, it must dedicate one natural attack, and cannot use that natural attack during it's full attack routine. Each grapple check takes a cumulative -5 penalty to it's CMB check. The full-attack sequence takes a flat (non-cumulative) -5 penalty. Attacks and grapple CMB checks may be made in any order on the creature's turn. This is an extraordinary ability.
Hmm, that's quite a bit more deadly than my house rule... a creature with multiple grab attacks that wanted to just hold a victim with one limb and full-attack with the others only takes a -5 to its CMB to maintain the grapple. Unless the line that says "The full-attack sequence takes a flat (non-cumulative) -5 penalty" applies to attack rolls as well as CMB checks?
CR +25% feels a bit all-or-nothing. I was going to make the CR adjustment for my version depend on the number of limbs the creature has... something like increase CR by (number of natural attacks / 3), round down. A crocodile doesn't gain that much from being able to grapple and full attack, since it just adds the tail-slap, while a giant octopus becomes a lot more deadly.
I guess that since your version is a new extraordinary ability rather than a retcon on the Grab ability you can always choose not to give it to creatures that wouldn't benefit much from it.